Yeah, that was a lot of my questions and prompts in this thread. What are the good things you can do with Astrogation? How difficult should they be? Failure is easy to adjudicate. But a skill for "Succeed and you don't die" is not really a fun mechanic. Players want to do cool things with their signature skill.
Astrogation needs help
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
"Succeed and you don't die" should be reserved for high-energy combat situations, trying something incredibly stupid, or hanging by your fingernails off a cliff. Otherwise a failure should be something that enhances roleplaying, not something that forces you to return to character generation (though I did like it better when chargen could kill you, especially with the old book 4 and 5 rules where you could take greater risks to get medals).
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
I always saw astrogation as an art, which requires some judgement, fuzzy logic, and abstract concepts that are very difficult for machines to actually replicate: I have allowed biological and self-aware/conscious AI to remove the negative DM’s for that reason.
I also started playing Traveller at the same time that I read Dune, in the early 80’s. Between the Mentats, Luke shutting off his computer to destroy the Death Star, and even the Last Starfighter’s “Right Stuff” that could not be replicated.
In a modern sense, look at astrogation as a more complex version of driving your car. While the technology is there to allow a car to drive itself, the nuances of driving is still just outside the reach of a computer driver.
I also started playing Traveller at the same time that I read Dune, in the early 80’s. Between the Mentats, Luke shutting off his computer to destroy the Death Star, and even the Last Starfighter’s “Right Stuff” that could not be replicated.
In a modern sense, look at astrogation as a more complex version of driving your car. While the technology is there to allow a car to drive itself, the nuances of driving is still just outside the reach of a computer driver.
Dalton Calford
Banded Mongoose
Death in character creation made character creation a solo game with its own risk/reward structure. I really enjoyed it. I think Mongoose should have it return.
The only thing I miss from Bk 4/5/6/7 chargen was the risk/reward element in survival. Otherwise, the actual dying in chargen was amusing, but I don't think it actually made anything better for actual play purposes. DId make it fun to just make characters and see what happens.
As far as Astrogation goes, justifying a sophont being the astrogator is not difficult. Whether it is jump space woo-woo, needing someone to set the parameters to get good results from the computer, or whatever.
It lacks gameplay support as written. There's a lot of cool ideas in this thread. Hopefully they'll make their way into the rules at some point.
As far as Astrogation goes, justifying a sophont being the astrogator is not difficult. Whether it is jump space woo-woo, needing someone to set the parameters to get good results from the computer, or whatever.
It lacks gameplay support as written. There's a lot of cool ideas in this thread. Hopefully they'll make their way into the rules at some point.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
I miss medals
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
There are two basic issues with astrogators:
1. Do they do anything important?
2. And what do they do inbetween that flash in the pan?
They're basically clerics with only healing spells.
1. Do they do anything important?
2. And what do they do inbetween that flash in the pan?
They're basically clerics with only healing spells.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Astrogators don't just calculate jumps, they are probably responsible for go no go decisions for transitions.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
That is true of any one-trick pony.
If you combine Pilot and Astrogator in a single character, or treat them as Captain and First Officer, it makes sense. The two should be redundant
It is not a question of whether they do anything important. It is whether they do anything that makes for good gameplay.
IRL, US Navy Navigation Officers are watch standers primarily responsible for ensuring the Quartermasters (what the US Navy calls is navigation enlisted) are keeping track of the ship's location, upcoming hazards, and using secondary methods of reckoning to accuracy check the SatNav. The Quartermasters also maintain all the navigation related gear. In the US Merchant Marine, the navigator is one of the ship's officers (typically the 2nd Mate) and basically does the same thing.
The Helmsman is a completely different job. Master Helmsmen are actually specialists who often have other jobs since helming the ship in normal conditions is not particularly skill intensive. The master helmsman takes over for the rando at the wheel when navigation or the watch officer decides the situation is a high risk situation, such as maneuvering in restricted quarters.
In Traveller terms, a Quartermaster needs Astrogation, Electronics (Sensor Ops), and Mechanics to do their job. A Master Helmsman needs Pilot and whatever their day job is. (One interview I read, the Master Helmsman was a Sonar Tech).
But is that good gameplay to make that distinction? It can be. But it involves giving the Astrogator active, useful tasks that have actual "in adventure" benefits. But if Astrogator is just going to be a help skill for the Pilot and Engineer, it shouldn't be a mandatory ship's role IN THE GAME.
Just like IRL most spies sit at a desk reading stuff. But that isn't what makes for good game play
IRL, US Navy Navigation Officers are watch standers primarily responsible for ensuring the Quartermasters (what the US Navy calls is navigation enlisted) are keeping track of the ship's location, upcoming hazards, and using secondary methods of reckoning to accuracy check the SatNav. The Quartermasters also maintain all the navigation related gear. In the US Merchant Marine, the navigator is one of the ship's officers (typically the 2nd Mate) and basically does the same thing.
The Helmsman is a completely different job. Master Helmsmen are actually specialists who often have other jobs since helming the ship in normal conditions is not particularly skill intensive. The master helmsman takes over for the rando at the wheel when navigation or the watch officer decides the situation is a high risk situation, such as maneuvering in restricted quarters.
In Traveller terms, a Quartermaster needs Astrogation, Electronics (Sensor Ops), and Mechanics to do their job. A Master Helmsman needs Pilot and whatever their day job is. (One interview I read, the Master Helmsman was a Sonar Tech).
But is that good gameplay to make that distinction? It can be. But it involves giving the Astrogator active, useful tasks that have actual "in adventure" benefits. But if Astrogator is just going to be a help skill for the Pilot and Engineer, it shouldn't be a mandatory ship's role IN THE GAME.
Just like IRL most spies sit at a desk reading stuff. But that isn't what makes for good game play
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's one reason I keep mentioning that graduates from starship academies would have a mandatory astrogation/zero.
It is actually pretty hard to get Astrogation in Traveller (leaving aside Connections). All Naval personnel have Pilot 0. But line officers can't learn Astrogation except on the Advanced Education table. In fact, Line officers don't get any bridge crew skills. But players probably go Flight, which at least has a chance of getting Astrogation.
Merchants also require Astrogation, but it is only available on the Advanced Education table.
Merchants also require Astrogation, but it is only available on the Advanced Education table.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
That sounds like an absolute nightmare and great source of inspiration (also, explains why so many adventures are the result of a jump mishap or other ship accident )
Mongoose' avowed intent is to keep Traveller somewhat generic, so as to keep the core book a relevant base for other settings and licenses. I'm paraphrasing from memory but I don't think anything has changed in this regard.
And going way back, lore is that Marc Miller's original assumption with classic Traveller was that of course every GM who ran it was going to roll their own setting, what else would they do? Of course that assumption didn't survive contact with the player base, giving us the canonical 3rd Imperium in short order, but the implication is the original implied setting Imperium was more of a placeholder for the "real" setting your GM would provide.
Your position Vormaerin is consistent and reasonable, but not necessarily something that's on offer. Better to make the game world your own in the meantime.
I am not sure how what I am asking for has anything to do with setting. Are you saying that the mechanics of real space navigation will be different from setting to setting? Right now it literally only affects jump drives in the rules, so that seems kind of setting specific already.
The game has a skill, Astrogation. It is stated in the rules to be a required role on every starship (in this edition). And it mechanically, it is just a 'check to make sure you don't die on the way to the adventure'. It can and should be a lot more if it is intended to be a player role in a ship based game.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
There is a section in the Updated Traveller Companion about Jump Variance which has tables for Distance Variance and Time Variance.
The Distance and Time Variance tables give typical
jump characteristics. The Effect of the astrogator’s skill check to set up the jump plot is used as a DM on the Distance Variance table. The Effect of the engineer’s skill check is used as a DM on the Time Variance table. In general, the better the plot and jump entry, the closer the jump will be to baseline parameters. A model jump of exactly normal duration and emergence is at 105 diameters to create a margin of safety, although a very good plot can bring the ship out at exactly the 100 diameter limit and shave some time off the journey.
The Distance and Time Variance tables give typical
jump characteristics. The Effect of the astrogator’s skill check to set up the jump plot is used as a DM on the Distance Variance table. The Effect of the engineer’s skill check is used as a DM on the Time Variance table. In general, the better the plot and jump entry, the closer the jump will be to baseline parameters. A model jump of exactly normal duration and emergence is at 105 diameters to create a margin of safety, although a very good plot can bring the ship out at exactly the 100 diameter limit and shave some time off the journey.
That's a good start on adventure useful material for the astrogator. Between tracking a ship via its jump flash and this, you could reasonably try an interstellar pursuit. If there was some guidelines on realspace navigation applications that had proactive, beneficial effects it would be ace.
Dunno why my brain thought that stuff was in the JTAS articles. Getting old, I guess.
Dunno why my brain thought that stuff was in the JTAS articles. Getting old, I guess.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If jump direction is determined by the angle of the starship's nose, there aren't that many destinations to guess at.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If you don't have the brass,
grass, gas, or ass.
Freighter, waiter, or astrogator,
you get a pass.
grass, gas, or ass.
Freighter, waiter, or astrogator,
you get a pass.
