Astrogation needs help

A rule that has no effect on anything is a waste of space in a book where space has a cost. If you spend time explaining a limit that does not, in fact, limit anything, then it's just useless. Which is the case for the interstellar application of the rule.

For the in system application of the rule, it has the same problem with any other in system travel. There is no way for the referee or the player to actually know where two bodies are in relation to each other at the any given time that is consistent. Can I jump from Earthport to Jupiter at the moment or is the Sun's jumpshadow in the way? NO IDEA. So, again the rule becomes unplayable.

Real space has this problem, but it at least has a "take the average and then use a randomizer to determine where it falls at the moment" workaround. Jump is a yes/no question, however.

Edit: You asked how it is undesirable. I ask: how is it helpful or desirable? In what way does it add something interesting to the play of the game?
Many examples have been given for both intersteller and insystem applications for astrogator. You might not like them, but they exist, and I think most people will find them compelling.

As with Gun Combat, you need to know where the target is to decide if the shooter can even shoot at the target. Does this make it impossible to use the skill? Is this a problem for the skill's very existence? In my view, it is not. The referee can decide where the target is, or figure out based on the target's last known position and movement where it is, and either using a map and checking sight lines. If theater of the mind is used, consistency might be a problem, but referees in my experience are mostly up to the challenge.

Same with jumping. I recommend just making a roll for line of sight on the first occasion, and if the issue arises again in the same system, make sure you give an answer which makes sense given the movement of the planets in-between times. If you really want to dive in, use Universe Sandbox, but for most referees, most of the time a guestimate will do the trick. Precise locations for planets can be given, if you want to go to the trouble, but 99% of the time it is just as good to wing it. This doesn't mean it is not important: if the referee rolls that you will need to fly out to get a line of sight on your target star outside jump shadow, it might be the opportunity the pirates need to jump you. It just means that an approximate answer, given on the fly, will work just as well - as with a theater of the mind gunshot, the effect is still still there. You don't need to calculate the orbital dynamics to know that planets will circle around their star quickly if they are in close, and slowly if they are out far. (and this problem is not the fault of Astrogation skill, or of jump shadows: you still have this issue if you want to fly your spaceship from one planet to another. This is a space opera type game: flying spaceships around is baked-in, and the issue of knowing where planets are arises, jump shadow or no)

Why even bother with any of this? Space travel and jump space need rules so that we know how they work in game terms, and electroplating from the basic principles is needed to apply them to specific situations. Players will try to figure out solutions to the problems you present them, and to do that they need understand how their environment works. These things add to game play because they create potential problems and strategies to solve them, and shape a terrain on which spacecraft move. Things could be done differently, such as not having jump shadows, but then that creates a whole different terrain and different set of problems and solutions, which are not developed at all in the canon.
 
IMHO, the game worked fine for decades with jump shadows only affecting arrival and departure, not transit. Same thing with your thrusters not turning off around Saturn. These don't strike me as innovations that make the game better. Maybe if they supported it with robust systems, it might be different.

I agree that players will attempt to solve problems you present to them. But they have to have the tools to solve it (or, better yet, anticipate it) themselves or it doesn't matter. You seem to think that groups that are not primarily astrophysics hobbyists will just 'wing it' around how to use Astrogation and space travel issues in an interesting way. I suspect that, absent any guidance in the rules, they'll just ignore it.
 
And just to be clear, my original comment on jump masking was in reference to the previous conversation about jump transit. I am not in any way, shape, or form advocating for eliminating jump shadows for entry or exit of jumpspace. I'm just saying that the 'electroplating' of those rules into something that lets real world objects knock ships out of jumpspace was not a good addition to the game.

Which I am not even sure is explicitly stated anywhere in Mongoose Traveller, actually.
 
IMHO, the game worked fine for decades with jump shadows only affecting arrival and departure, not transit. Same thing with your thrusters not turning off around Saturn. These don't strike me as innovations that make the game better. Maybe if they supported it with robust systems, it might be different.

I agree that players will attempt to solve problems you present to them. But they have to have the tools to solve it (or, better yet, anticipate it) themselves or it doesn't matter. You seem to think that groups that are not primarily astrophysics hobbyists will just 'wing it' around how to use Astrogation and space travel issues in an interesting way. I suspect that, absent any guidance in the rules, they'll just ignore it.
I also struggle with the new limits on maneuver drives
 
So that is actually what he meant. I wasn't sure, because I still haven't figured out what that has to do with the maneuver drive falling off an efficiency cliff at 1000D. :D
 
So that is actually what he meant. I wasn't sure, because I still haven't figured out what that has to do with the maneuver drive falling off an efficiency cliff at 1000D. :D
I am interpreting it as encouragement that IMTU, we can adjust the rules to be how I want.

I did, in a way. I created rules for lightcraft and light transit arrays that propel smallcraft using something like Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) to achieve high-g thrust in deep space (without that “speed of smell” deep space drive).
 
Depends on how fundamental this technological limitation is in the Third Imperium.

And if we can mitigate it's effects, whether by customization or a new understanding of gravity that allows us to bypass the limitations.
 
I also struggle with the new limits on maneuver drives
I just ignore these. Although I understand the problem they are trying to solve, the idea that you can't use a maneuver drive effectively in interstellar space just sucks so bad that I can't go along with the solution. It also effectively converts misjumps into interstellar space from a possibly solvable problem into an automatic TPK.
 
You seem to think that groups that are not primarily astrophysics hobbyists will just 'wing it' around how to use Astrogation and space travel issues in an interesting way. I suspect that, absent any guidance in the rules, they'll just ignore it.
Yes, they will and do. Which is fine; it is natural that referees will be able to give more texture to aspects of life, the universe and everything, that they know about and gloss over those they don't. I also suspect that the Traveller player base has more than its share of hard sci fi fans and astrophysics hobbyists, and for us space travel is, per se, interesting and exciting.
 
I think a lot of players find space travel interesting and exciting, but aren't astrophysics hobbyists and would gladly use more of it if they had guidance from the rules.

The rules say that a plotting a gravity slingshot around a gas giant is a 10+ Astrogation test. What it forgets to say is what actually happens as a result. Is plotting the course doing it? Or is this just a task chain bonus for the pilot actually doing the maneuver? If they do succeed, how much does this gravity slingshot help? Ideally in a gameplay focused format, not just the actual math.

And the other interesting realspace navigation applications people have talked about in this thread are not even mentioned in the rules. I think it is worth changing that.
 
I think a lot of players find space travel interesting and exciting, but aren't astrophysics hobbyists and would gladly use more of it if they had guidance from the rules.
There is a lot of development on this topic at Freelance Traveller, https://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/navigation/index.html, which absolutely could also use more interpretation into actual rules, especially in regards to interaction with other skills. Of course, you can always use actual math, but if you know enough about it to do that, you also have the intuitive grasp to give plausible answers without using the math.
 
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