Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Agreed.
Auto-Astrogators... not that bad?
- Thread starter rinku
- Start date
I'm certainly not in the camp that says no stations. But there are many, many systems where a permanent base, that has to be maintained and supplied, makes less sense than a mobile platform that can be relieved and return to the actual base for repair, refit and resupply. And even if the system has a Scout Way station... some X-Boats are going to make minor misjumps now and then and they'll send out a tender to bring it in.
Okay.
I just noticed that the Mongoose tender has 300 tons allocated for X-Boat docking... and an additional 100 ton full hangar. Although the actual deckplans are a bit confusing in this regard, since there are two identical bays running through 6 decks, plus the hangar. The geometry of it says either there's docking space for two boats plus one in the hangar, or docking space for four plus one. Maybe it should be redrafted so that the three in the docking bays are nested two pointing forward and one pointing aft? Or to have three bays? Or, radical thought, reduce the capacity to two plus one and add a 100 tons of fuel tankage?
I've pretty much given up on Mongoose deckplans, to be honest.
I just noticed that the Mongoose tender has 300 tons allocated for X-Boat docking... and an additional 100 ton full hangar. Although the actual deckplans are a bit confusing in this regard, since there are two identical bays running through 6 decks, plus the hangar. The geometry of it says either there's docking space for two boats plus one in the hangar, or docking space for four plus one. Maybe it should be redrafted so that the three in the docking bays are nested two pointing forward and one pointing aft? Or to have three bays? Or, radical thought, reduce the capacity to two plus one and add a 100 tons of fuel tankage?
I've pretty much given up on Mongoose deckplans, to be honest.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Retcon would be fuel drones.
And general supplies, by FedEx.
And general supplies, by FedEx.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
This is scientifically illiterate.
If I can supply a 0.1g drive with power for a couple of months then the ship or station is going to move a huge distance.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Once again the distance travelled with a 0.001g drive after a couple of months constant acceleration is not to be sniffed at.
138,316,961 km and will have a velocity of 53km/s
Last edited:
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
"Xboats: The ships of this network have been specifically designed for the job, and are not really suited to any other duty. Each contains a pilot's compartment, message data banks, powerful broadcasting equipment, and jump drives permitting up to Jump-4. Space is so cramped aboard the xboats that they do not even contain maneuver drives. A ship makes its jump, relays its messages to the station immediately upon arrival by means of a high-speed, tight-beam radio transmission, and then waits to be picked up and towed into the xboat station by a specially built xboat tender, where it will be refueled, refitted, and prepared for its jump to the next destination."
"As an Xboat arrives in a system, it beams its recorded data to the express station, which then re-transmits it to an Xboat standing by for a jump outsystem"
"Selected locations along major trade routes are established as sites for express stations, which are orbital facilities which service and refuel the Xboats on their communications runs"
So the tender doesn't refuel the xboat, it takes it to the station... although if necessary for fast turnaround the tender carries enough fuel to refuel a few boats. I don't think a lot of people appreciate just how many xboats arrive and depart a system in a day.
"Xboat Stations: An xboat station is usually located near the edge of a system, where it can pick up the information beamed to it from incoming xboats with the smallest possible delay. The station contains receiving and rebroadcast equipment, to receive the xboats transmissions and send them in turn to other xboats and to the populated world(s) of the system. An xboat station contains facilities for refueling and repair of the xboats and their tenders, as well as quarters for the pilots and the staff of the station"
"Xboat Station: Facility for handling Xboats at a star system. At each system served by the Xboat network, an express boat station is maintained to handle the message traffic and to manage incoming and outgoing Xboats.
Usually located near the edge of a star system, the station picks up messages beamed to it by incorning Xboats and relays the data to the local world for delivery. Messages destined for worlds farther down the line are transmitted to a waiting Xboat which then jumps for the next world in the network.
The Xboat station contains receiving and re-transmission equipment; refueling and support facilities for the local staff and waiting crew are also provided. The Xboat station maintains a local office on the system’s major world for the acceptance of Xboat messages, as well as to handle delivery of the messages to addresses on the world."
If I remember rightly in the old MgT1e space stations book you had an xboat station...
"As an Xboat arrives in a system, it beams its recorded data to the express station, which then re-transmits it to an Xboat standing by for a jump outsystem"
"Selected locations along major trade routes are established as sites for express stations, which are orbital facilities which service and refuel the Xboats on their communications runs"
So the tender doesn't refuel the xboat, it takes it to the station... although if necessary for fast turnaround the tender carries enough fuel to refuel a few boats. I don't think a lot of people appreciate just how many xboats arrive and depart a system in a day.
"Xboat Stations: An xboat station is usually located near the edge of a system, where it can pick up the information beamed to it from incoming xboats with the smallest possible delay. The station contains receiving and rebroadcast equipment, to receive the xboats transmissions and send them in turn to other xboats and to the populated world(s) of the system. An xboat station contains facilities for refueling and repair of the xboats and their tenders, as well as quarters for the pilots and the staff of the station"
"Xboat Station: Facility for handling Xboats at a star system. At each system served by the Xboat network, an express boat station is maintained to handle the message traffic and to manage incoming and outgoing Xboats.
Usually located near the edge of a star system, the station picks up messages beamed to it by incorning Xboats and relays the data to the local world for delivery. Messages destined for worlds farther down the line are transmitted to a waiting Xboat which then jumps for the next world in the network.
The Xboat station contains receiving and re-transmission equipment; refueling and support facilities for the local staff and waiting crew are also provided. The Xboat station maintains a local office on the system’s major world for the acceptance of Xboat messages, as well as to handle delivery of the messages to addresses on the world."
If I remember rightly in the old MgT1e space stations book you had an xboat station...
Last edited:
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I do understand that. Perhaps they should have said that a station keeping drive grabs the gravity field in a way similar to how the maneuver drive works but all it does is basically hold a ship or station mostly where it is, even if that is a moving trajectory. I don’t know how that would work (and I don’t care either) but they want something to keep a ship or station from drifting.
Wanting what everyone else wants is beyond the scope of what the maneuver 0 was supported to do. Rather than figure out how to break the rule, why not figure out how to handwave it to work? People can always break the rules and get a system to do what they want. For this one, they want a cheap drive to do what other drives do rather than one that does what the rules envision.
Maybe calling it a maneuver drive at all was wrong. Call it a space anchor.
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
I already use that name for Type-A's
So your going to design a dozen different tenders based on how much fuel they need to refuel the X-BoatsA tender stationed at the junction of two J-3 links knows the incoming boat is going to need 30 tons
No a tender has the facilities to refuel and repair an X-Boar look at the design. It’s not a tug and I’d like to know what you’re quoting? If it Mongoose T1 than I wish they hadn’t dropped it from the game for T2 though tenders by their design are not tugs and it would cost way to much to use them as such. I still don’t understand the reluctance to put maneuver drive on the X-Boat it just makes economic sense.
Attachments
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I think I got the impression, that the Express Boat Tender was a mobile gas station and all night convenience store, that moved to the stranded Express Boat.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Using physics is not breaking the rules. If I drop a hammer on someone's head from 200 feet up in the air, that is not breaking the rules, that is using physics. I get tired of having to handwave almost every rule in Traveller because the rules were handwavium when they were written instead of actually being thought through. Giving something an acceleration and then saying that it can't move is what I would expect from someone who never took a science class, not someone writing a science-fiction game. So, let's fix the problem instead of using even more handwavium to cover up the original handwavium.
Why not just add a limitation the same as if you built it as a prototype M-Drive? Allow it to be built a TL earlier and make it only work out to like 10D from a gravity well. Doesn't something like that already exist for other things? I could have sworn I read this rule somewhere.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Why try to make something into something it isn't meant to be? You want a cheaper maneuver drive so you're twisting the intent of this to get it.Using physics is not breaking the rules. If I drop a hammer on someone's head from 200 feet up in the air, that is not breaking the rules, that is using physics. I get tired of having to handwave almost every rule in Traveller because the rules were handwavium when they were written instead of actually being thought through. Giving something an acceleration and then saying that it can't move is what I would expect from someone who never took a science class, not someone writing a science-fiction game. So, let's fix the problem instead of using even more handwavium to cover up the original handwavium.
Why not just add a limitation the same as if you built it as a prototype M-Drive? Allow it to be built a TL earlier and make it only work out to like 10D from a gravity well. Doesn't something like that already exist for other things? I could have sworn I read this rule somewhere.
Call the widget whatever you like, but it has one purpose: to keep a ship or station where it is. Wanting more is gaming the system. Rule 0 it if you want, but the book is clear what it is supposed to do.
As for the original topic a lot depends on what has to go into the navigation process which is a mystery. The common thread to this whole post is simple navigation ie a direct line from point a to point b which is great in Einstein universe but this is not jump space. Who knows how you navigate from point a to b in jump space maybe you have to go through z and q to get there
. There are also certain types of math that computers have a hard time doing and can only roughly simulate, I’m talking to you integration. While I don’t hate the ideal that you don’t need a living navigator, I always seen the living intelligence person on the ship as a indicator that jump space has a quantum aspect ie you need a observer to determine the outcome and a none true AI doesn’t qualify.
. There are also certain types of math that computers have a hard time doing and can only roughly simulate, I’m talking to you integration. While I don’t hate the ideal that you don’t need a living navigator, I always seen the living intelligence person on the ship as a indicator that jump space has a quantum aspect ie you need a observer to determine the outcome and a none true AI doesn’t qualify.MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Then it is not an M-Drive. It doesn't obey any of the rules of M-drives, so calling it an M-Drive is the definition of trying to make it into something it wasn't meant to be. I am actually fine with using tugs to nudge stations as needed, but I am not the one who decided to call it an M-drive, install in one a station, and then break the rules on how M-drives work.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Hence why I suggested an alternative name. Mongoose isn’t the best at that sort of thing.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
If a gravity well in normal space can bring a ship in jumpspace back into normal space, then jumpspace and normal space are not just connected, but coterminous.As for the original topic a lot depends on what has to go into the navigation process which is a mystery. The common thread to this whole post is simple navigation ie a direct line from point a to point b which is great in Einstein universe but this is not jump space. Who knows how you navigate from point a to b in jump space maybe you have to go through z and q to get there
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I could support just a simple name change, but how they will explain it? Good luck. What does the device do? Does it bond you to a fixed point in space? Fixed as relative to what? Can it be moved by outside forces acting on it, or is it like that magic item from D&D, once you turn it on, it cannot be moved by any known force? The specifics of how you define the device would matter as well.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Damned if I know.
Similar threads
