Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If you complexify jumpspace, you'll need an experienced astrogator to optimize your utility of it.
Or avoid warp storms.
Or avoid warp storms.
Astrogation needs help
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
The key to remember is that a 2D6 bell curve doesn't give that many possible outcomes. Even if you only fail on a natural "2", that is still 1 in 36 times. How routine is any task (Astrogation or otherwise) and how commonplace is failing at a routine task (or succeeding at a formidable one)? And the more task-checks that you daisy-chain together to determine overall success of a procedure, the more likely you make the odds of a failure possible due to failure of one of the component rolls.
Unless the task is something that is always inherently difficult or quirky, task checks should be performed only when there is something at stake or there is something unusual in the circumstances. Under normal circumstances one can assume the person is taking as much time as he/she needs to perform the task at a casual pace and double-checking him/herself for errors (or starting over in the middle of the task if necessary, etc.) to get a satisfactory result. The time for a roll is when there is a time constraint or when someone is otherwise under pressure, or there is some other difficulty or special circumstance impinging upon the outcome.
Okay, those are astrogation rolls. How do they actually work? Say I'm off a station around an Orbit 4 planet and can no longer use the refueling station I expect, so I need to get to the gas giant in orbit 7. How much faster can I cover that distance with a good astrogation roll? What is the astrogator doing in the fiction that makes the path better? Does the Pilot and/or Engineer have any role in this or is it all on the astrogator?
High Guard mentions that synchronizing arrival is Astrogation. Is that a separate astrogation roll from the normal jump plot? Or just a more difficult one? How much more difficult? Can you actually control when you arrive vs the wide variable of a standard rules? How does that work? (Agent of the Imperium indicates you can do both, though it makes it seem that it is a matter of drive synchronization over a lengthy period rather than clever astrogation fwiw).
No one is denying that astrogation would be important IRL. But the game doesn't support it. The RAW doesn't give the referee or player anything to go off of in the rules or any examples in any of the adventures. Assuming both the player and the referee have enough astrophysics knowledge to improvise that is not ideal, imho. Ergo, it needs help.
High Guard mentions that synchronizing arrival is Astrogation. Is that a separate astrogation roll from the normal jump plot? Or just a more difficult one? How much more difficult? Can you actually control when you arrive vs the wide variable of a standard rules? How does that work? (Agent of the Imperium indicates you can do both, though it makes it seem that it is a matter of drive synchronization over a lengthy period rather than clever astrogation fwiw).
No one is denying that astrogation would be important IRL. But the game doesn't support it. The RAW doesn't give the referee or player anything to go off of in the rules or any examples in any of the adventures. Assuming both the player and the referee have enough astrophysics knowledge to improvise that is not ideal, imho. Ergo, it needs help.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
With brute force multi-g brachistochrone flight path, an effect from an Astrogation check might not get you more than 1% plus or minus on time or fuel use.
(Fun fact - I can't spell in any language, but this time it actually helped to ask ChatGPT: 'what's the word that starts with a b for a constantly accelerating interplanetary flight plan?' so in this limited case, AI is better than a dictionary for finding words you can't spell)
(Fun fact - I can't spell in any language, but this time it actually helped to ask ChatGPT: 'what's the word that starts with a b for a constantly accelerating interplanetary flight plan?' so in this limited case, AI is better than a dictionary for finding words you can't spell)
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
How do you make the Astrogation skill useful in a sci fi rpg like Traveller?
Astrogation, in the context of a sci-fi RPG like Traveller, can be a highly useful and intriguing skill. Astrogation typically involves navigation through space, calculating optimal routes, and plotting courses for interstellar travel. Here are several ways to make the Astrogation skill useful and engaging in your game:
- Route Planning: Astrogation can be crucial for finding the shortest, safest, or most fuel-efficient routes between star systems. This skill can help the crew avoid hazardous regions, navigate through asteroid fields, and find hidden shortcuts.
- Exploration: In a universe with uncharted or newly discovered star systems, Astrogation becomes vital for plotting courses to unexplored regions. Characters with high Astrogation skills might uncover new trade routes, resource-rich planets, or mysterious phenomena.
- Plot Hooks: Astrogation can lead to various plot hooks. Characters might uncover ancient starmaps, decipher cryptic navigation codes, or stumble upon hidden jump points that only skilled astrogators can navigate through.
- Encounters: Astrogation can impact the frequency and types of encounters during travel. Characters with better Astrogation skills could avoid hostile or dangerous regions, or perhaps even intentionally navigate through them to evade pursuit.
- Risk Management: Astrogation can involve assessing potential risks during jumps, like gravitational anomalies, navigation hazards, or unexpected celestial phenomena. The skill could allow characters to mitigate or anticipate these risks.
- Trade and Commerce: Skilled astrogators can identify profitable trade routes and schedule travel to coincide with market trends. This can lead to better trade deals and greater profits for the crew.
- Emergency Jumps: When pursued by enemies or facing imminent danger, characters might need to make quick and accurate Astrogation rolls to make emergency jumps to escape.
- Navigation Devices: Astrogation could involve the operation and calibration of advanced navigation computers, allowing characters to influence the accuracy of jumps and navigate more efficiently.
- Ancient Artifacts: The universe in a sci-fi RPG often contains ancient artifacts, devices, or gateways that require astrogation skills to activate, decode, or unlock. Characters with the skill might have a unique edge in exploring these mysteries.
- Hijinks and Mishaps: Failed Astrogation rolls might result in misjumps, leading the crew to unexpected and potentially dangerous destinations. This can create opportunities for exciting adventures and unexpected challenges.
How long is a piece of string? How much efficiency could be improved by skill is greater the more complex the problem. I think Gier is right, in that there would be some effect, but not huge with Traveller type starships; they have so much delta-V that it is unlikely to be critically important.
The variety of situations that could arise is so great that really it has to be up to the referee to just decide. Some examples could help - i.e. what is a more complex situation, what is less - but unless you really want to go into the math of it (which is what the astrogator is doing), it is mostly the referee just guesstimating in the end. This is not so different that other skills. How much Deception is needed to palm that Ace in the casino?
The astrogator plots courses, which requires applied math, physics, and astronomy: you need to know where you are, where you are going, and what vector you need to add to end up where you want to be (so where the other objects are and will be in the future, as well as their possible gravitational influence on your ship). Plotting courses for one's own ship also means plotting for all other objects of interest - since positions are relative and everything is moving. So s/he tells the pilot how much to thrust and in what direction. The engineer ensures the engine actually delivers the appropriate thrust when the pilot pushes the joystick.
In jump the same applies, in that it is about figuring out where you are and where you are going, except the situation in the target star system needs to be taken into account - where the system will be on arrival since star systems are actually moving quite quickly, and the various objects in the system of course are also moving around, usually in orbits. So ending up where you want to be should not be assumed; also figuring out just where you actually are relative to other objects when you've arrived should require astrogator skill if the system doesn't have beacons to orient by. I would assume that systems with D or better starports would have some form of beacon, in which case you can just point your ship at it and go.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
Shucks! Those are some good answers
yeah, except number 6, where I don't think it should apply at all. Won't be long before AI has replaced referees. And players not long after.
I may not know how difficult palming an Ace is, but I know that it is possible and what the range reasonable outcomes are. So I can make something up to suit the story. I don't believe that this is true for most players with regards to the Astrogation skill. So, either the game needs to do what most fiction does, which is elide the astrogation bits, or actually provide guidance on what is reasonable in the context of this game. Which is the preferable solution, imho.
Ideally with cool things that are not simply "give a bonus to someone else" if we want this to be a PC role on the ship.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
I like the idea of adjusting the time and distance.
Here is a quick table of advantages for improved Astrogation plots.
Astrogation Accuracy Table:
How to Use the Table:
Here is a quick table of advantages for improved Astrogation plots.
Astrogation Accuracy Table:
| Astrogation Check Effect | Impact on Time in Jump | Accuracy upon Arrival |
|---|---|---|
| 6 | -20% (reduced by 24 hours) | Pinpoint: Appears exactly at desired coordinates. |
| 5 | -15% (reduced by 18 hours) | Near Pinpoint: Appears within 1D x Light Minute from target. |
| 4 | -10% (reduced by 12 hours) | Close: Appears within 2D x Light Minutes from target. |
| 3 | -5% (reduced by 6 hours) | Fairly Close: Appears within 3D x Light Minutes from target. |
| 2 | Standard Time | Moderate: Appears within 4D x Light Minutes from target. |
| 1 | Standard Time | Off Target: Appears within 5D x Light Minutes from target. |
| 0 | Standard Time | General: Appears within 6D x 10 Light Minutes (up to 107,925,285 kilometres) from target. |
- Determine Astrogation Effect: After the Astrogation check is made, determine the Effect (the margin by which the check succeeded or failed) and refer to the table.
- Time in Jump: Depending on the Effect, the time the ship spends in jumpspace may be reduced. If your jump usually takes 7 days (or 1480 hours), then an Effect of 6 would reduce this by 24 hours, meaning the jump only feels like 6 days to the crew.
- Accuracy upon Arrival: Depending on the Effect, roll the appropriate dice to determine the ship's distance from its intended destination. For Effects 5 through 1, you'll roll a varying number of six-sided dice and multiply the result by the speed of light (approximated as one Light Minute) to determine the kilometers off-target. For an Effect of 0, you'll multiply the result of rolling a six-sided die by 10 Light Minutes to get the distance.
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Seffix
Emperor Mongoose
What if the player (or character) chose how to split the effect across the Time in Jump and Accuracy upon Arrival results? It would give the player a little more input and a chance to strategize over how a particular success would manifest.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
I like that.
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adding a mechanic for distance from target and time in jump is a good idea. Right now, we don't have a mechanic to tell us exactly where and when the ship comes out of jump and this would do that. I would normally just ignore it as extra complexity, but once in a while it is very important, and on those occasions this would tell us what happens, and give the astrogator an appropriate role in shaping outcomes.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Time is easy, and alterations are time that passes in the outside universe, and time that passes in the pocket universe.
Space is hard, because the game is abstract in that, beyond more or less, to we happen to be in a specific hex that stretches a parsec, going to another hex, with at best a local gravity well being our waypoint, and our relationship with it.
Space is hard, because the game is abstract in that, beyond more or less, to we happen to be in a specific hex that stretches a parsec, going to another hex, with at best a local gravity well being our waypoint, and our relationship with it.
maddormo
Mongoose
I'm a relative newbie in Traveller but I'm so glad to read post like this one. Usually I've heard and read that this kind of "simulations?" has no place in a traditional RPG adventure. "Too nerdy and technical" "very boring roll dice festival" "breaks the flow of the game". I thought that my only hope would be Pionner, but I'm so glad to see that in Traveller universe and its huge lore there is place for more hardcore features. Some of them more typical of space simulation than a TTRPG.
I hope the future operational manual includes some of these topics and expand the mechanics of sensor. But in my humble opinion, like happen with World Builder's Handbook, a manual focused on survey and scouting, gathering all these topics, and the exploration mechanics introduced in Great Rift and Deepnight would be an excellent addition to Traveller universe. It may not be a mainstream or a huge sales success but, still, a great way to attract other type of players (astronomy enthusiasts, wargamers, flight simmers, etc)
I understand that these are not mechanics that appeal to the vast majority of traditional Traveller players. It's very niche. So, why not a solitary game about scouting and surveying gathering all these hardcore mechanics?
Regards
I hope the future operational manual includes some of these topics and expand the mechanics of sensor. But in my humble opinion, like happen with World Builder's Handbook, a manual focused on survey and scouting, gathering all these topics, and the exploration mechanics introduced in Great Rift and Deepnight would be an excellent addition to Traveller universe. It may not be a mainstream or a huge sales success but, still, a great way to attract other type of players (astronomy enthusiasts, wargamers, flight simmers, etc)
I understand that these are not mechanics that appeal to the vast majority of traditional Traveller players. It's very niche. So, why not a solitary game about scouting and surveying gathering all these hardcore mechanics?
Regards
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
One of the things we seem to focus on is what happens when the roll fails, and not as much when the roll succeeds. Almost all discussion in the rules are about the cascading catastrophic effects of a bad roll, and not the benefits of a good roll.
I could have made the difficulty of the tasks greater to have to same effect without changing any core rules.
Just my Perspective as Referee
I could have made the difficulty of the tasks greater to have to same effect without changing any core rules.
Just my Perspective as Referee
Dalton Calford
Banded Mongoose
Ok, this is an interesting subject so lets address each in kind
- The statement "Astrogation does not have much use"
- PreJump as a chained action for engineering (includes fleet and non fleet jumping)
- PostJump as a modifier for location (good idea btw)
- I use a 3d6 hour modifier in prepositioning/prejump, in order to avoid gravatational wells once at the 100 diametre limit, this is reduced by 1d6 hours per astrogation effect roll (ie beat the astrogation roll by 4, hours to get into position =3d6-4d6 minimum 0) this is in addition to the chain effect.
- Intersystem navigation reduces FUEL use when using thrusters (not maneuver as maneuver is affected by the 1000 diameter limit)
- Intersystem navigation allows for chained bonuses on skimming (approaching at the right angle, assisting the pilot)
- When setting up sensors/probes/detecting enemies, astrogation can be a chained modifier, as they know how, why, and where things should be on a level that most would ignore.
- Chained tactics modifier as they assist the captain to make decisions that include the affects of gravity, inertia, planetary and solar effects such as flaring etc IF time is given before the combat ie when the combat is planned well in advance.
- The statement "Why not have a computer do all the calculations?"
- In CT, you could buy tapes that had a single jump calculated on it. They could not be reused and were available from starports.
This shows that originally, having a navigator/astrogator was not originally considered manditory, regardless of ship size/class. - The CT example does not say a computer has done the calculations - so in "setting terms" could still have humans doing the final work.
- Jump (and some other tech) has always been "strange tech" ie something that is not always discovered; - ie you could be TL 20 and never discover Jump.
This indicates that Jump has something "beyond" the math. Something that needs inspiration, not just calculation. So, in my universe, Astrogators, have an innate psi strength (usually not told to the player) calculated at the time of learning the skill. The strength of their psi has modifiers to their Astrogation rolls, whether the player knows it or not. This also prevents computers or non-psi AI from ever calculating a jump/hop/skip etc.
- In CT, you could buy tapes that had a single jump calculated on it. They could not be reused and were available from starports.
