Artificial Intelligence

[Anonymous]

I went back on my request to return the thread to the topic, AI in Traveller...

The cost/return can get messy when AI comes into play.

Traveller simply avoided it in the past, saying no no to it and to robots and cyborgs. Now fast-forward 35+ years... Players want their AI. So, how will it get developed? And how will it get paid for? And which humans get to live for free in such a place?

Now fast-forward again to Virus. Problem solved. Humans have to huff it again.

If you're playing in the OTU, yeah, how many of us are playing OTU?

Do you have no internet in YTU? It wasn't part of CT to the best of my knowledge.

The game and the setting are evolving, Dragoner posted how his TU has evolved and added AI.

That's the beauty of Traveller to me, you can mod it to your heart's content. I just don't understand why people get so fired up when an MTU post is made for the subject of sharing and discussion.

Nothing is written in stone, really, nothing.

:shock:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If you're playing in the OTU, yeah, how many of us are playing OTU?

85% of my games are OTU.

Do you have no internet in YTU? It wasn't part of CT to the best of my knowledge.

Yes. It's not called the Internet everywhere. But there are computer networks wherever there are tech levels that handle it. There were computer networks way before the Internet ever happened. And they will exist after the Internet is long gone.

The game and the setting are evolving, Dragoner posted how his TU has evolved and added AI.

People's kids grow up. But they're not my kids.

That's the beauty of Traveller to me, you can mod it to your heart's content. I just don't understand why people get so fired up when an MTU post is made for the subject of sharing and discussion.

It's when that MTU wants to base itself on reality, trying to make the jump from us to that, when "sharing" kicks into real gear.

Nothing is written in stone, really, nothing.

That's what Traveller blogs are for. You have one? Or am I subscribed to it already?

 

[Anonymous]

I don't have a blog, I have a wiki I'm using to develop a setting. I keep it private partly so I don't breach copyright and partly cos I'm interested in hearing what the people I intend to play the setting with think of it.

Blogs are not really my thing, it's a subtle difference granted, but I prefer the interaction the wiki has potential for and that's the reason I hang out here, I am genuinely interested in advancing the game, be it the setting or the rules, posts like the first in this thread, do that.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I use all kinds of ways to talk/trade Traveller ideas. Google+ Hangouts are my most used. Less typing.

 

[Reynard]

Hiro, I stand by my comments since it dealt mostly with how other media in scifi have used robotics and A.I. and how they all fit in with their respective social and economic systems. You need to watch the shows and movies and focus on what's going on besides ship battles and fighting aliens. There's a lot of information. So, yeah, a bit offended you waved it all off as if it doesn't exist and a bit offended you say I wasn't on topic about A.I.s including others noting social and economic impacts they can have on the game system.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

scifi have used robotics and A.I. and how they all fit in with their respective social and economic systems.

In general, sci-fi movies just hand-wave all their robotics and AI. Their economics are rarely explained. See 2001 and 2010.

Traveller just increases the tech-level or software number on its mainframes to achieve AI without regard to how societies will be affected.

 

[Anonymous]

Reynard, please accept my apologies for any offence caused, it was not my intention.

With regard to the subject, I suggest we agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

One theory is that we're now in a post capitalist world, and that automation could replace forty percent of current jobs, and the economy can't find alternate work for those now redundant.

And that's not even anywhere near AI.

Oh I want capitalism between machines, humans would just be welfare receipients. Capitalism is what generates wealth and socialism only redistributes it. Having the state give everyone a job and hire people to do x, y, and z when machines can do it cheaper, is just a means of redistributing income. if you want to redistribute income, redistribute income. Humans in a post labor economy would not contribute anything useful, machines that are more intelligent and efficient can do it better. Government does have a redistribution function though, it taxes those that contribute to the economy and redistributes to those who do not, the only thing to consider is you keep the load on the productive center small.

One idea is for government to pay everyone $1 an hour, for doing nothing, every hour of their lives, whether awake or sleeping, whether an infant or an old man, whether of working age or not, everyone gets $1 an hour. That is $168 a week. Robotic labor will make everything cheap so that any amount will be adequate.

 

[Reynard]

Try Judge Dredd (plug, plug)and the Mega-Cities. Millions upon millions with no jobs (uh huh, robots) and nothing to do and the government pays them. Some find 'hobbies' but the vast majority are Rats in a Cage so insanity and violence rule. People need purpose in life.

Except for very dangerous occupations there is really no need for very sophisticated robots that merely replace humans who can still do the job. More so goes for A.I.s. What is the actual purpose for A.I.s? Are they scientists forever forced to come up with new science and technology breakthroughs for their owners? Are they very valuable kept pets of the rich and powerful?

Maybe the fear by a populace is the genie getting out of the bottle. Like Virus, the A.I. learns to go airborne. As hackers today take control of systems , wifi A.I.s reproduce themselves in other systems. Thankfully True A.I.s are at tech levels only on extremely rare worlds not seen except as artifacts. Chip life is a very big exception by taking a shortcut with a natural silicon intelligence and look how that went.

I think the problem is too many people experience the cutesy A.I.s and robots in some movies and tv shows as all-powerful and sometimes adorably quirky but always benevolent so now we have Munchkin A.I.s coming to Traveller at lower tech levels. Any sense of reality or hard scifi hand waved as not relevant to this new world.

Oh, well.

 

[dragoner]

I don't have a blog, I have a wiki I'm using to develop a setting. I keep it private partly so I don't breach copyright and partly cos I'm interested in hearing what the people I intend to play the setting with think of it.

Blogs are not really my thing, it's a subtle difference granted, but I prefer the interaction the wiki has potential for and that's the reason I hang out here, I am genuinely interested in advancing the game, be it the setting or the rules, posts like the first in this thread, do that.

Thanks.

Most blogs are just bloviating anyways. It would be nice to have new users on the forum, anything really, instead of looking at a page of foes, and then making the mistake of reading them. They make no sense. But, I'm not quite ready to give up on the place just yet. It is weird of the knee-jerk against AI, when it was a main feature in Adventure 1, so long ago. Oh well, indeed.

For the most part, I just was looking at the chart and thinking of the rating; while I have another idea of that the rating could be the speed of the computer, load as much as you want, but then divide what's loaded by the computer's rating and that gives you a multiplier to use vs turns, anything over round up. One could also have multiple computers as well, like "oh no, they hit the fire control computer!" It could add a little drama.

 

[Condottiere]

I recall a Dredd story where a citizen is flagged for spending more money than he's supposed to be earning, so the Judges follow him on close circuit surveillance.

They discover he actually has three jobs, presumably using false identities, and arrest him since having more than one job is illegal.

As regards to quirky AIs, on the last Killjoy episode, it turns out the spaceship actually likes one of the Killjoys more than the others.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I don't know anyone who uses the 3rd Imperium OTU.

That said, change the TL structure to do what you want out of the game. It's your game, it's designed to be altered (as log as you aren't using the 3rd Imperium, that is). It's just a framework.

Wasn't someone doing an 'Eclipse Phase' to 'Traveller' conversion?

 

[simonh]

They discover he actually has three jobs, presumably using false identities, and arrest him since having more than one job is illegal.

I remember that one. They sentenced him to hard labour and he's overjoyed.

Simon Hibbs

 

[CosmicGamer]

AI
Artificial = Man made and not naturally occurring
This part is covered, no problem.

Intelligence = ?? Well, there is a bit of different definitions and opinions about this, especially when it comes to computers.

Taken by itself, many would say that computers are intelligent.

When some people start talking AI computers, they seam to think of a computer that mimics all human behavior and not just intelligence. It starts having more emotional qualities like a superiority complex and ego. Being more quirky and unpredictable. It's needs are more important than others, thinks it knows better than humans, tries to prevent humans from having control. Don't we already have this? Microsoft windows! :lol:

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Try Judge Dredd (plug, plug)and the Mega-Cities. Millions upon millions with no jobs (uh huh, robots) and nothing to do and the government pays them. Some find 'hobbies' but the vast majority are Rats in a Cage so insanity and violence rule. People need purpose in life.

Is that really an accurate depiction of what a post human labor economy would be? Judge Dredd is a work of fiction after all, and is subject to the author's interpretation and to his opinions on what things would be like, also consider he was looking for a good story to write, so he needed some conflict to generate some suspense. if you didn't have a job but got paid anyway, would you really choose to be a thug? Being a thug is risky, in that you might get killed, and if the government is paying you money for nothing and that amount is adequate, why should you risk you life?

Except for very dangerous occupations there is really no need for very sophisticated robots that merely replace humans who can still do the job. More so goes for A.I.s. What is the actual purpose for A.I.s? Are they scientists forever forced to come up with new science and technology breakthroughs for their owners? Are they very valuable kept pets of the rich and powerful?

Robots create wealth, they would enable everyone to be rich, whereas today that is not possible. Rich people are rich because they are skilled in management and in getting other people to do all the hard work for them in making them rich. The Rich man pays their employees a salary or wage and those employees in the process of doing their job, generate a profit for the rich man which helps make him richer. Donald Trump did this. With robots as capable as humans, everyone now has the potential to be the equivalent of Donald Trump. If there were seven trillion robots on Earth as smart as humans and as capable, then every human being could be rich! I think that would be nice!

Maybe the fear by a populace is the genie getting out of the bottle.

A genie can also grant your wishes.

Like Virus, the A.I. learns to go airborne. As hackers today take control of systems , wifi A.I.s reproduce themselves in other systems. Thankfully True A.I.s are at tech levels only on extremely rare worlds not seen except as artifacts. Chip life is a very big exception by taking a shortcut with a natural silicon intelligence and look how that went.

I think the problem is too many people experience the cutesy A.I.s and robots in some movies and tv shows as all-powerful and sometimes adorably quirky but always benevolent so now we have Munchkin A.I.s coming to Traveller at lower tech levels. Any sense of reality or hard scifi hand waved as not relevant to this new world.

Oh, well.

But AI is hard science fiction, it violates no laws of physics since we don't violate them by existing, something artificial can also be produced that do what we do.

 

[dragoner]

AI
Artificial = Man made and not naturally occurring
This part is covered, no problem.

Intelligence = ?? Well, there is a bit of different definitions and opinions about this, especially when it comes to computers.

Then add consciousness.

I do sort of add "dumb AI" to every system automatically, as it makes so many UI's I've seen pale in comparison, there has got to be a better way. As far as faking it, well that's called "dealing with humanity", genuine smile or rictus grin? Though I have a tendency to believe that dealing with computers won't be less frustrating, only that doing things like running a starship will need another level higher, things will begin to happen, like avoiding micrometeorites that human reactions will be too slow. That awareness of it's surroundings, or sense of self, could be called sentience.

 

[Reynard]

"Is that really an accurate depiction of what a post human labor economy would be? Judge Dredd is a work of fiction after all, and is subject to the author's interpretation and to his opinions on what things would be like, also consider he was looking for a good story to write, so he needed some conflict to generate some suspense. if you didn't have a job but got paid anyway, would you really choose to be a thug? Being a thug is risky, in that you might get killed, and if the government is paying you money for nothing and that amount is adequate, why should you risk you life?"

A lot of works of fiction are the author seeing and interpreting the real world as a story. Fiction doesn't make it false. Try reading Dredd and really look over events in our past and present to see where he gets his patterns. Most certainly look at todays world with people losing jobs to both foreign labor and, yes, robots and notice how loss and despair losing everything then getting a small stipend to live on. It does drive many to the edge.

" With robots as capable as humans, everyone now has the potential to be the equivalent of Donald Trump. If there were seven trillion robots on Earth as smart as humans and as capable, then every human being could be rich! I think that would be nice!"

That is an incredible rose colored view of business seen only in very optimistic scifi fiction. Robots should replace services dangerous to human and aid rather than replace. Our world today is about replacement and it's very transparent about where the wealth goes. Widening gaps in class and wealth. This is now by dumb bots that pay no taxes or add to the economy with spending. Now add in more sophisticated robotics to replace more and more jobs so there is even greater disparity. Soon you have only an elite class because robots become the lower slave class. They have no need for the 99%. Robots designed to leverage wealth is always a bad idea.

"A genie can also grant your wishes."

But who creates and owes the genie and who today reaps the wishes?

"But AI is hard science fiction, it violates no laws of physics since we don't violate them by existing, something artificial can also be produced that do what we do"

Right now, we have no more evidence of A.I. existence than Jump drives and psionics. The 'science' we see in stories featuring A.I.s still have no actual hard science and most versions tend to violate a lot of physical laws as far as we experience. Traveller A.I. tech is as good or bad as any other perceived and imagined. I wish everyone would stop claiming their version of A.I. is actual reality and should replace the Traveller concept beyond one's own game universe.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, Dredd was an extrapolation of Thatcherite England, though the high unemployment was probably a prevailing mood existing before that.

While we're still on the subject of quirky AIs, Dark Matter delved into accents, jealousy and brainwashing/infiltration/hacking/preprogramming security issues.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

As I recall, Dredd was an extrapolation of Thatcherite England, though the high unemployment was probably a prevailing mood existing before that.

It was a satirical comic book.

If there were seven trillion robots on Earth as smart as humans and as capable, then every human being could be rich! I think that would be nice!

People are only as rich as their governments will allow.

 

[Reynard]

"People are only as rich as their governments will allow."

And who has the money to control governments to suit their needs? It's not even secret.