Artificial Intelligence

[Anonymous]

The ultimate benevolent government?

The last word in nanny states?

:mrgreen:

I can see that going down well, John Connor wrapped in a Confederate flag, will be enshrined forever without even being born!

The irony and sarcasm is thick in this one...

 

[dragoner]

All Watched Over By Machines Of Loving Grace

I like to think (and
the sooner the better!)
of a cybernetic meadow
where mammals and computers
live together in mutually
programming harmony
like pure water
touching clear sky.

I like to think
(right now, please!)
of a cybernetic forest
filled with pines and electronics
where deer stroll peacefully
past computers
as if they were flowers
with spinning blossoms.

I like to think
(it has to be!)
of a cybernetic ecology
where we are free of our labors
and joined back to nature,
returned to our mammal
brothers and sisters,
and all watched over
by machines of loving grace.

-Richard Brautigan

 

[Anonymous]

Careful now, you're getting all post scarcity on us...

8)

 

[dragoner]

Yes, very Banksian Culture, then the question becomes: "where do we go from there?" It could be an evolutionary dead end, or even regression. I saw something the other day where an evolutionary biologist said our brains have gotten smaller since we moved to civilization, as opposed to being hunter-gatherers, we began to rely on others to think for us.

 

[Anonymous]

Looking around me during the course of my normal working day it's quite apparent the lack of innovation going on in our minds... I think therefore I shop seems to be the limit of it for some people, pacification programme indeed...

I doubt that significant change will come around in my lifetime as much as I'd like for it to.

Back in the game world, its very feasible to me that there's an increasing use of expert systems for many tasks. Without the spectre of self awareness I can see computers doing many things behind the scenes in people's day to day lives. Something as complex as a starship would be a prime example of where a computer wired into every system and monitoring it all constantly would be running the show and the people would be there to make the executive decisions. I can see this at TL 9 or 10 and up.

How you want to play a true AI in a Traveller setting is another matter. As we've hinted at in this discussion it's hard not to see AI having a truly fundamental effect on a civilisation that would take it beyond our realm of imagination. Alien to it's core and very much not the majority of Traveller universes.

 

[Reynard]

"Which version of Godwin's law did you just break by using the G word in a discussion on AI?"

Chips can have religion if they so perceive the concept. The Great Programmer. Etcher of souls upon the Substrate.

Nothing better says computer intelligence than the Cymbeline chips.

 

[dragoner]

Back in the game world, its very feasible to me that there's an increasing use of expert systems for many tasks. Without the spectre of self awareness I can see computers doing many things behind the scenes in people's day to day lives. Something as complex as a starship would be a prime example of where a computer wired into every system and monitoring it all constantly would be running the show and the people would be there to make the executive decisions. I can see this at TL 9 or 10 and up.

How you want to play a true AI in a Traveller setting is another matter. As we've hinted at in this discussion it's hard not to see AI having a truly fundamental effect on a civilisation that would take it beyond our realm of imagination. Alien to it's core and very much not the majority of Traveller universes.

I would say ships are sentient in all but name. Some of this I play off as Vilani influence, being technophobes, the Terrans and Zho's have no such inhibitions. Some could be the level of Banksian Culture "true AI", a godlike intelligence; which I have in my game, there is a state, moving towards just that. But is in many way being bitterly resisted by the surrounding worlds. They offer peace, what they get is war. One neighboring state, a shard of the old Imperium, rails against them while they themselves are ruled by one of the old Emperor's household robots, who they call the "Iron Duke".

I'll try to imagine it, for the very reason of what you mention, the mindless shoppers, bore me.

“It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.”

― Robert H. Goddard

 

[Anonymous]

I would say ships are sentient in all but name. Some of this I play off as Vilani influence, being technophobes, the Terrans and Zho's have no such inhibitions. Some could be the level of Banksian Culture "true AI", a godlike intelligence; which I have in my game, there is a state, moving towards just that.

How have you amended the crew requirements for ships?

If indeed you have, maybe the crew is still there in some perfunctory role.

 

[dragoner]

I would say ships are sentient in all but name. Some of this I play off as Vilani influence, being technophobes, the Terrans and Zho's have no such inhibitions. Some could be the level of Banksian Culture "true AI", a godlike intelligence; which I have in my game, there is a state, moving towards just that.

How have you amended the crew requirements for ships?

If indeed you have, maybe the crew is still there in some perfunctory role.

You mean the joy-riders? :mrgreen:

But even by regular rules, crew are somewhat redundant if you want them to be.

 

[Anonymous]

There are a myriad of formats that a Traveller game can take but star ship crews are quintessential Traveller fare.

I'm intrigued as to how you arrived at this assessment, please do tell!

 

[dragoner]

Look at page 92 of the core rules, there is no reason that the ship can't be a robot, running an intellect and expert program, crew could be just backups, like the crew on the Nostromo, keep them in low berths.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, it's been a busy day so I am failing to work the numbers out but the gist of it as I understand it is...

Install a bunch of specialist computers, one for each crew station perhaps, have them run a combination of expert, agent and intellect software with the appropriate skill linked to the expert/agent/intellect. Most ship based skills are Int and Edu, personally I don't see piloting a starship as a dexterity thing, I think that's a romantic notion that starships are just like spitfires... It seems to me that 5th generation fighter pilots are more akin to information managers in G suits, something an expert system would be ideally set up to do, tho, minus the G suit.

What needs to be repaired or maintained physically is handled by robots built into the systems or little mobile spider like things.

What else is there? Bigger jacuzzis for the "crew"? How long till its a day to day thing for current day airliners to be flown on autopilot from start to stop?

I'd be keen to see the actual spec laid out for me as I am somewhat slow tonight... (pretty please)

 

[heron61]

Yes, very Banksian Culture, then the question becomes: "where do we go from there?" It could be an evolutionary dead end, or even regression. I saw something the other day where an evolutionary biologist said our brains have gotten smaller since we moved to civilization, as opposed to being hunter-gatherers, we began to rely on others to think for us.

Except we're already headed for being able to throw off evolution's mindless hand. If you have a culture (or perhaps Culture) advanced enough to create intelligent AI, you also have one advanced enough to take control of its own genetics and not give one flip for what natural selection might produce.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the point was that as the trend to an easy life has increased, we are not exercising our minds and bodies. I don't think that's a biological/evolutionary thing, it's a cultural one tho Darwin I am not. We're getting fatter and slower: there's nothing to keep us on our toes.

More likely that with our current mindset a far more sinister turn will come from genetic manipulation.

Eugenics anyone?

 

[Condottiere]

 

[simonh]

I think the point was that as the trend to an easy life has increased, we are not exercising our minds and bodies. I don't think that's a biological/evolutionary thing, it's a cultural one tho Darwin I am not. We're getting fatter and slower: there's nothing to keep us on our toes.

That true for some people, but not overall. In the last few geenrations western society has gone from large scale illiteracy and a manual labour economy to a highly literate information economy. Pasive TV watching is giving way to interactive game playing and selective online video in which users exercise far more editorial control over what they watch, but there are much more expressive options available now as well.

I think kids playing Minecraft is a huge improvement over my generation that spent hours watching TV. My girls engage in a huge variety of collaborative activities in Minecraft including roleplay, competitive team construction competitions, survival games, parkour, king of the hill and capture the flag apart from just building their own settlements. They play from computers in different parts of the house and co-ordinate using their iPads as walkie-talkies. When they’re not doing that, they spend a lot of time reading and publishing their own fiction on wattpad. The upcoming generation has communications, collaboration, creative and sharing tools available that were unimaginable in my childhood and they’re using them in some very sophisticated ways.

If you go to a shopping centre, you will see people shopping, but I think the rise and normalisation of geek culture is a very strong and encouraging trend. Geek culture is about engaging interactively with cultural products and getting involved in creating your own, not just passively consuming them.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Reynard]

Y'all remember they pulled the plug on the M5 computer when they realized giving it total control and making humans useless was a bad idea.

The only people who really want obsolescence of humanity are the ones at the top who profit. You don't get a society of genius scientists and artists with lots of free time to 'create', you have a lot of people out of work and floundering economies. Desiring A.I.s running everything just makes the people at the top useless too.

 

[Condottiere]

I'll bet that when the times comes, opposition will be expressed in religious terms.

You may also have an elite that have their minds permanently connected to the cloud and able to access and process instantly gigabytes per second.

 

[dragoner]

I'd be keen to see the actual spec laid out for me as I am somewhat slow tonight... (pretty please)

Not really worked it out because I haven't needed to, but look at the rating, and how much or how little space is needed. Humans do the work because they are cheaper? Now that you mention it ... somewhat like cheap industry today.

I think there are even more expansive rules in the robots books. The bottom line will always be is that players like to be crew and without players you have no game. I'll think about stuff because I like thinking about stuff, but it doesn't come up in the game.

 

[dragoner]

Yes, very Banksian Culture, then the question becomes: "where do we go from there?" It could be an evolutionary dead end, or even regression. I saw something the other day where an evolutionary biologist said our brains have gotten smaller since we moved to civilization, as opposed to being hunter-gatherers, we began to rely on others to think for us.

Except we're already headed for being able to throw off evolution's mindless hand. If you have a culture (or perhaps Culture) advanced enough to create intelligent AI, you also have one advanced enough to take control of its own genetics and not give one flip for what natural selection might produce.

Except for the 'human experimentation' stage in the middle, aye, therein lies the rub. Even Gattaca wasn't a wonderland. But this belongs in it's own thread.