Army of Light - no more League? Playtest rules questions.

[Hindsight]

While using counters is legal. I pay to play a miniatures game. If someone came to my LGS and never put effort in to replace counters, with a real army, I would not play them.

I pay to play with model ships, against model ships. The quality of the game is almost imaterial to the quality of the miniatures. Not to say that the game is not important, but I don't spend hours on my paint jobs, to put them on the table against a Walnut on a flight stand, and my opponents available pocket change spread across his deployment zone.

 

[Triggy]

Exactly - hence the desire to keep every person's miniature collection "game legal"

 

[Humbaba]

First I would like to say it is critical, in my opinion, that league fleets continue to be allowed. Many people have invested heavily in mixed fleets and suddenly disallowing their fleets through an update smacks of the Evil Empire. People will leave the hobby because of it.

One way, though harsh, to limit the most common cherry picking scheme is to say that League Fleets lack the level of coordination of a race specific fleet and so they can not link directly with each other, so that, the scout trait of one race does not grant any bonus to another race, escorts cannot give AF dice to another race, fighters cannot serve as interceptors for another race, command bonuses are right out, etc. (if I have missed something).

This would not eliminate all of the “fill the gap” choices, but it would fill a lot of them and it would make mixing League ships a lot more difficult – especially tournament fleets where you are very likely to need scouting at some point in the day.

It does not eliminate all of the gaps filling, but you don’t want to eliminate all of the filling – part of the fun with any fleet list is trying to put together a solid fleet for a game; it should be the same for the League. The point is to limit them so that they are not “over the top”.

Thoughts?

-Humbaba

 

[Hindsight]

First I would like to say it is critical, in my opinion, that league fleets continue to be allowed. Many people have invested heavily in mixed fleets and suddenly disallowing their fleets through an update smacks of the Evil Empire. People will leave the hobby because of it.

Do swarms need to be addressed? Sure. Taking an action that makes what someone bought obsolete... will kill a game. We need all the players we can get, and taking an action that will cause someone to say f&*k it! and leave... is not an action I can get behind.

 

[l33tpenguin]

One way, though harsh, to limit the most common cherry picking scheme is to say that League Fleets lack the level of coordination of a race specific fleet and so they can not link directly with each other, so that, the scout trait of one race does not grant any bonus to another race, escorts cannot give AF dice to another race, fighters cannot serve as interceptors for another race, command bonuses are right out, etc. (if I have missed something).

I really like these ideas. Although possibly, to make them *less* harsh, use CQs when taking interracial actions, to give the feel of them 'trying to work together'

If you look at real military history, when multi-national forces are involved, there are often instances of conflict in regards to orders. A unit commander might not commit his men whole heartedly to an offensive, causing an allied unit to suffer. There is also difficulty in regards to the sharing of resources and materials. Just cause WE have access to satellite images of the area doesn't mean we are going to give YOU access to those images...

Just because it is a single player commanding a fleet doesn't mean that the fleet would work together. Just look at how well the league gets along in B5. Every race is constantly out for themselves. Even with the formation of the ISA, it was about self interest. To say that it would be much different on the battlefield when lives and ships worth countless credits are at stake is silly.

Maybe 'Combined Crew check' where, to use a trait across two different races in a combined fleet, two CQ checks are rolled, and their combined total must be higher than a target value, like 15 or 16. This would account for the difference in CQ amoung some fleets

 

[locarno24]

I agree that we don't want to invalidate someone's model collection. Personally I do use the counters, but the point remains.

If the problem is 'covering another fleet's weakness' then I agree that cutting out interaction between the two fleets makes sense. I'm just trying to think precisely what we're looking at.


1) Initiative - a blanket penalty or drop to +0 (unless you're normally worse) is in the current rules, and sensible

2) Command Bonuses - reduce or eliminate

3) Escorts - won't protect another fleet

4) Fighters - wont intercept for another fleet, won't support another fleet's fighters

5) Fleet carrier - won't benefit another fleet's fighters

6) Can't squadron up multiple fleets

7) Scouts - can't use another fleet's scout bonuses

8) Breaking stealth - ??? Bit harsh, possibly, but don't get a +1 for your allies breaking stealth

If special rules are introduced for allies, they should definitely become the case for ISA, for league, and for raiders. Psi-corps feels a bit more odd - the fleet is deliberately designed to want rather than need regular fleet support......

The point that springs to mind is if someone has got a pak'ma'ra fleet with one Vree scout, that leaves the scout saucer useless. It's not been banned, but it's still useless. On the other hand, it's hard for the player to argue that it's been done for anything except a cheeky advantage.

Hmm......awkward.


One other comment - I personally did quite like the idea of an Army of Light fleet. Just a feel thing.

 

[Foxmeister]

If special rules are introduced for allies, they should definitely become the case for ISA, for league, and for raiders. Psi-corps feels a bit more odd - the fleet is deliberately designed to want rather than need regular fleet support......

I concur - I don't really consider using EA ships in a Psi-Corps list, a use of allies. I see it that the Psi-Corp have requisitioned regular EA ships and would maintain full command and control of them.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

I concur - I don't really consider using EA ships in a Psi-Corps list, a use of allies. I see it that the Psi-Corp have requisitioned regular EA ships and would maintain full command and control of them.

I second this.

I agree that we don't want to invalidate someone's model collection. Personally I do use the counters, but the point remains.

I hope I didn't come off against people who choose to use counters, I just play mini games for the minis, and have come to really appreciate the impact of a well assembled, well painted army when set out against you on the table.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

1) Initiative - a blanket penalty or drop to +0 (unless you're normally worse) is in the current rules, and sensible

2) Command Bonuses - reduce or eliminate

3) Escorts - won't protect another fleet

4) Fighters - wont intercept for another fleet, won't support another fleet's fighters

5) Fleet carrier - won't benefit another fleet's fighters

6) Can't squadron up multiple fleets

7) Scouts - can't use another fleet's scout bonuses

8) Breaking stealth - ??? Bit harsh, possibly, but don't get a +1 for your allies breaking stealth

Most of these suggestions totally invalidate the concept of allied fleets and are completely unrealistic. An allied force trains together before the operation they're undertaking and there is absolutely no way any allied force would be allowed to get away with the insanity you've suggested. An escort ship not supporting an allied vessel when under fire - that's dereliction of duty at best and could be argued as treason after the fact. Likewise for fighters refusing to support allies in dogfights. Cowardice in the face of the enemy. They shoot you for that in war time.

The only valid idea here is disallowing squadrons between fleets, that wouldn't be happening except in cases of long-term training. Combined League fleets need some restriction I agree, but these ideas aren't the way to go about it.

 

[katadder]

yes cos we train with the czechs and the americans before going to iraq (sarcasm).

I spent 4 months working alongside the czechs, the command issue would be a problem between races speaking differant languages, also we wouldnt just take orders from czech commanders, would be requests. they would protect you though so most the other stuff would be ok.

out the list the init and command issues are the only real viable ones to use.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

yes cos we train with the czechs and the americans before going to iraq (sarcasm).

I spent 4 months working alongside the czechs, the command issue would be a problem between races speaking differant languages, also we wouldnt just take orders from czech commanders, would be requests. they would protect you though so most the other stuff would be ok.

out the list the init and command issues are the only real viable ones to use.

That's not the case in naval ops, though. You'd have liason officers that could relay orders in the worst cases, like the RN working with the Chinese for some reason, but within NATO you've got officers in the other militaries that speak English fluently. It would be the same in the League, they'd be taught each others' languages in officer training, and a combined fleet would spend weeks or even months working up for joint ops. A hit to iniative would be inevitable as doctrines are different, command structures have to be sorted out and proper comms established but by the time a fleet made it to the battlefield that would be done.

 

[Greg Smith]

But in B5 most races speak English anyway.

 

[Foxmeister]

Apart from most of the Minbari crew on the White Star fleet anyway...

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

The Army of Light is lead by Sheridan or Delenn in most cases, or at the very least the missions were selected by them. The fanatical trust in those two, in my eyes, would make the AOL coordinate fairly well, as the belief in Sheridan and Delenn and the fight against the shadows was almost religious.

This is my key fear with giving them an army list. There is no justifiable way that the Army of Light worked together against anything but the Shadows or the Vorlons. Making it a free for all list, that you can put up against Earth Force, or the Minbari, or any other race just doesn't fit, and I imagine is the key reason this specific build hasn't been legal prior.

Keep the league. Fix its flaws.

 

[Triggy]

Looking at the suggestions for the League, the AoL would be an additional fleet to the League. League fleets may have a couple more penalties for mixing ships but fundamentally wouldn't change enormously. The AoL could then be exactly what you describe it as - a fleet that is designed for the Shadow War and like the Dilgar fleet and Psi Corps/Black Ops, if people want to use it outside of that context then let them feel free.

 

[Da Boss]

Apart from most of the Minbari crew on the White Star fleet anyway...

Regards,

Dave

Speak loudly and clearly and they will understand :wink:

I think with the minor (ish) Initiative change to League and ISA fleets and the Alt AOL for those who want to use it should keep many people happy?

 

[Hindsight]

Are we at that point? Have we had response from the PTB as to the next version of the AOL with keeping the league?

What ISA Init change? I don't mind taking the loss, as that makes the Tara'lin all the more important... but yea. Did we ever get that White Star Enforcers stats?

 

[Da Boss]

not to my knowledge - just speculating from various threads.........

the ISa one is something like -2 if it takes Allies or similar,

 

[Hindsight]

That seems a bit extreme, we can only take 1FP worth, and again going by the fanatical following that Sheridan and Delenn earned by defeating the Shadows, I don't see there being much of a loss in Init.

I guess I should just get used to always giving my Minbari foes the Initiative!

 

[Ripple]

good to see folks aren't going to take away the league...

What tourneys have been ruined by combined league fleets?

Where do we see combined league dominance in the game at this point?

As yet I have only seen one league fleet just pound away that was not clearly a swarm issue, and that fleet was the Gaim - mixed or pure or singly added to the ISA. That was addressed, not to my satisfaction, but it was addressed.

Drazi gain almost nothing from a Vree scout other than stealth reduction. If the Eyehawk wasn't such a colossal failure as a scout you might not be having the Vree discussion. Any scout with no defenses on a patrol hull is worthless as it is simply sniped off. Your telling me the drazi were balanced by the fact that they had a disadvantage vs stealth built in?

Narn have no good dogfighters... but do have an every turn e-mine ship to simply remove enemy fighters, so how relevant is this?

Abbai are balanced by not having big beams or long range... but they have the brivioki which has both...

My point here is that before you start pouring out penalties, find the fleet that has a clear advantage over its pure build.

Drazi with a Halik... is it really better than drazi with three guardhawks?

Prove to me that other than variety, that the mix outperforms the pure builds. And not just because you make a ship suck. You said the Darkhawk is worse than another bombardment ship... well it shouldn't be. I pay the same points for it, so it should be just as effective. If your saying the points system is broken, and some hulls are just going to be losers, maybe we need to think about how we're pointing stuff at all.

This is how we got the issue with the EA to start with, the Sag was too good, but folks... playtesters included said it was fine as part of the race. What your saying is that the other Drazi hulls are TOO GOOD for their pl, thus the complaints about the maxed out strikehawk fleet, just like the Sag fleet.

Balancing on race doesn't work, the actual ships have to be balanced.

Nova is balanced in an EA fleet, even though it could be just as home in an abbai fleet... needing to get close and duke it out to have its value. No shields, but longer range and lots of fighters. Just saying that any one fleet can have all kinds of build phlosphys in it and still be balanced if you have balanced the SHIP right...

So when you build the new lists, think about whether or not other races have a weakness they CAN'T build around, and whether that is good thing if it turns out to be the case.

Centauri have the Sullust for long range beams, Narn have the pulsar mine for fighter clearance, Drazi have the Darkhawk for F arc, ISA have whatever they need for fighter defense... Who CAN'T cover their weaknesses.

- as to future additions to the league... again it comes down to balancing the ship... if the ship is balanced then the fleet should be balanced, or at least fairly close.

Ripple