Army of Light - no more League? Playtest rules questions.

[Foxmeister]

If all fleets manage to be balanced, then a combined League fleet will also be.

Sorry but that is a false premise. A fleet can be balanced simply because the range and abilities of the ships that it contains have particular strengths and weaknesses. Some ships are balanced in the context of the fleet that they belong to, but would be weaker or stronger in a different fleet.

Combined fleets can (and often do!) maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses in such a way as to create an imbalance.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

By that logic, any fleet that can take allies, will always be superior to one that cannot. So the Army of Light, the League, and the ISA, that can mix and match ships (ISA to a lesser extent, only getting 1 FP), will always be superior to all others.

 

[Triggy]

By that logic, any fleet that can take allies, will always be superior to one that cannot. So the Army of Light, the League, and the ISA, that can mix and match ships (ISA to a lesser extent, only getting 1 FP), will always be superior to all others.

Without a penalty for the allies, that's the whole point of this debate

 

[Foxmeister]

By that logic, any fleet that can take allies, will always be superior to one that cannot. So the Army of Light, the League, and the ISA, that can mix and match ships (ISA to a lesser extent, only getting 1 FP), will always be superior to all others.

Well, the AoL has a restricted set of ships, so it can be balanced, and ISA can only get 1 FPs worth, so that isn't too bad either.

So that only leaves the League where there are currently *no* restrictions thus making them by far the most problematic.

Regards,

Dave

 

[silashand]

I still say that the League as it stands today is hardly unbalanced against all fleets available. Show me the tournament results where they *consistently* place higher than the other non-league fleets. I've looked and I don't see them. As I said, that they are more powerful than *some* League members is irrelevant. All that means is the latter are underpowered, not that the league is overly so. I see precious little actual evidence for all this talk that they are somehow broken, only that certain ships are.

Cheers, Gary

 

[silashand]

Sorry but that is a false premise.

Incorrect. That depends *entirely* on how such balance is implemented. I don't see them as being imbalanced *now*, but I do see some League fleets as being underpowered. Impose the right restrictions on the *parent* fleet and those restrictions carry over to the combined one.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Da Boss]

By that logic, any fleet that can take allies, will always be superior to one that cannot. So the Army of Light, the League, and the ISA, that can mix and match ships (ISA to a lesser extent, only getting 1 FP), will always be superior to all others.

and of course the ISa get an even wider choice - most in the game - Although I am happy it stays as is -
IF the League goes than the ISA can not have allies either for free is my view.
If it stays as a body than the ISA should stay as is
If the League suffer penaltes for allies - so should the ISA.

otherwise its a just yet another Vorlon plot to influence the destiny of the galaxy to follow their vision :wink:

 

[Foxmeister]

Incorrect. That depends *entirely* on how such balance is implemented. I don't see them as being imbalanced *now*, but I do see some League fleets as being underpowered. Impose the right restrictions on the *parent* fleet and those restrictions carry over to the combined one.

So, if I were to choose a force and allowed to pick any ships from any fleet that would always produced balanced results? The answer is no - so having balanced fleets does not mean that combined fleets are themselves are always balanced. Yes, you *could* create a balanced fleet, but there are probably many, many more combinations that are unbalanced.

So, we need restrictions, and we need limitations on combined fleets to prevent potential mini/maxing which can occur on a far greater scale with combined fleets than can be done with individual fleets.

I don't think that the LONAW fleets should be dropped from ACTA, but something does need to be done to prevent abuse.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

If the League suffer penaltes for allies - so should the ISA.

I think the ISA should drop to initiative +0 if they include allies in their list to "simulate" the loss of command and control they have over the allied contingent. In addition, any command bonuses that come from allied ships should not be applied.

Regards,

Dave

 

[silashand]

but something does need to be done to prevent abuse.

My question still stands: where exactly is that abuse *now* except in a few specific ships that happen to need tweaking within their own parent lists anyway, e.g. the Vree scout? Fixing them would in turn fix the problems they present within a League fleet and again I ask, why then is there this need to reinvent them? I just don't see it.

Cheers, Gary

 

[katadder]

its not specific ships within a fleet, its taking ships from other fleets to cover your own weakness.

ISA have a fighter weakness so taking something with e-mines works for them.
Pak have the same problem, so if e-mine all opposing fighters those nasty torpedo bombers get through unmolested.
Pak also dont have a scout, but even if they did with the negative to CQ they would be best taking a vree scout (this actually applies to all league fleets) as it gets a bonus to CQ. why would you take one of your own?

basically the LONAW allows you to cherry pick the best ships from all fleets to cover each others weaknesses.

 

[l33tpenguin]

What about requiring a League player to take a specific amount of points per race? Such as, you can take no more than 20% of a specific race (minimum 1 FAP) in a league fleet? A 5 point raid fleet would mean that each point was of a different race. This would force a league player to choose ships from 5 different races. Yes, they can still pick and choose, but they can't select heavily from a specific race for an advantage. It would also reflect the joint effort nature of the League.

 

[katadder]

you could, but then you are forcing people to buy 5 differant races for a 5pt raid which is going to get complaints.

 

[Foxmeister]

I was thinking that perhaps you could not mix league ships with different PLs. So if you want to take a Brakiri Battle level ship, all your Battle level ships must be from the Brakiri list. It would definitely be a significant restriction, and prevent a lot of mini/maxing.

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

I have an idea that may be interesting outside of the AoL for league fleets.
generally you wouldnt have more than 2 races cooperating unless in the AoL or ISA.
so the idea is: pick one race as your main race. you can have ships from a secondary race but they must be 40% of the fleet. so its actually 2 fleets combined, not just a random ship turns up to help out allies.
this would result in you having to be careful about what races you ally with just for the advantage of one ship.

 

[CZuschlag]

There are other issues than the pervasive Vaarl.

Drazi have issues with fighters. The Vree Zorth on the Xeel solves it very well. Or perhaps a Cidikar?

Or you could take a small pak squadron and Plasma Web them.

Pak have crew quality issues. Abbai Comm Disruptors even the playing field very quickly.

Vree hate interceptors, and cannot bombard at long range because of them. Enter the Hyach's long-range beam systems that we've speculated on (future release).

There are many synthesis out there. Vree is just the most obvious.

 

[l33tpenguin]

you could, but then you are forcing people to buy 5 differant races for a 5pt raid which is going to get complaints.

Well too bad for them. It puts a restriction on what is required for the League. Otherwise, its like the UN sending a security force some where and telling France they can't come along. If you want to fly a league fleet, you need to represent the league, not just the best parts of two or three races.

Also, no one is required to buy ships to play. Counters work just fine. Shoot, as long as I knew what each was, you could use assorted nuts to play. Dread the fearsome walnut class destroyer!

 

[Grunvald]

I can see it now a whole fleet Liqorice all sorts with salted peanuts as the fighters!

Or mars bars as omega destroyers and mars planets as the fighters!!

1 good thing would be you would eat what you kill so no wastage

 

[l33tpenguin]

I can see it now a whole fleet Liqorice all sorts with salted peanuts as the fighters!

Or mars bars as omega destroyers and mars planets as the fighters!!

1 good thing would be you would eat what you kill so no wastage

Who needs VPs when I can win sweet and salty snacks?!

 

[Triggy]

As players have pointed out, forcing restrictions on fleet selections for League fleets isn't really a good idea as it invalidates certain players' miniature collections. We need to achieve the balance through penalties rather than compulsary selections. Same goes for ISA allies too, a -2 initiative penalty (going to +0) if they take allies has now been suggested by a couple of people as an easy fix here.

As for the AoL, this is a new list so we can be a little more constructive and hence the list of permitted ships (which gives a huge variety of good ships and fighters but still needs to be tested).