Armor

[atgxtg]

Sure maybe throw in some of the RQ 3 armor types like Lamellar but keep it all within the 6pt armor range per MRQ. Scale limbs.. if it was actually made at some point sure.

Yeah, it is fitting it all into the 6 point range that causes the overlap. About the only point where I would break this would be if I wrote up something like gothic or maximilian plate, and made that a 7, but that would be rare, expereinsieve, and dependant on setting (Late Medieval Peroid or early Renassiance).

2) I was thinking of putting back the ability of wearith cloth/leather underneath other armor as per RQ2. So someone in a mail shirt can (and should) have cloth underneath.

Nah with weapon damage being reduced and the extra penalties that woudl be added I'd just leave it out.
I think I'll list it as an option, the way it was written in RQ2. A GM could always veto it, and players might not want the extra ENC. And plate is much expensive in MRQ.

Don't forget Linen, Bezanted and Lamellar.

I have linen on the chart, though it does pose some dicfficulties. Basically it is as good as curiboilli, but cheaper. It is probably okay depending on the avaiability of linen. It makes 3 point Ring pointless.

I like cheaper and heavier options. If the pc's have more money they can upgrade to the good stuff.

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. I can make Lamellar more expeeinsicve than scale, but lighter. Same with Chain and Brigadine.


So something like either:
1 AP= Cloth, Leahter
2 AP= Thick Leather
3 AP=Cuirboilli, Linen
4 AP= Scale, Lamellar
5 AP= Mail, Bridadine
6 AP= Plate

Wont really be able to fit Ring and Bezainted in though, or I could do

1 AP= Cloth, Leather
2 AP= Thick Leather
3 AP=Cuirboilli, Linen
4 AP= Bezainted, Ring
5 AP= Scale, Mail, Bridadine
6 AP= Plate

I think I like option 1. I for one won't miss ring, but bezainted was nice.

Hmm, I'm tempted to do B/E/P AP values. That would allow for a lot more wiggle room with the armor

 

[RMS]

So something like either:
1 AP= Cloth, Leahter
2 AP= Thick Leather
3 AP=Cuirboilli, Linen

I'd suggest shrinking this range to 1 AP for cloth and leather, skip thick leather, and put cuiroilli and linen at 2 AP. That'd give you more room at the top to work your other armors in.

However, I have another suggestion. If we're reworking armor, let's rework the weapon tables and armor tables in conjunction with each other. That way we don't have to cap at 6 AP due to weapon damages being too low. Besides, HP are about double per location now, so why not move weapons up a bit here and there if it makes the armor ranges work out.

Also, I think of 6 AP plate as being classic hoplite plate, not medieval articulated plate armor. The base AP would only be 1 or 2 points different, but the ability to bypass it would be a huge difference in penalties IMO.

 

[atgxtg]

I'd suggest shrinking this range to 1 AP for cloth and leather, skip thick leather, and put cuiroilli and linen at 2 AP. That'd give you more room at the top to work your other armors in.

However, I have another suggestion. If we're reworking armor, let's rework the weapon tables and armor tables in conjunction with each other. That way we don't have to cap at 6 AP due to weapon damages being too low. Besides, HP are about double per location now, so why not move weapons up a bit here and there if it makes the armor ranges work out.

Also, I think of 6 AP plate as being classic hoplite plate, not medieval articulated plate armor. The base AP would only be 1 or 2 points different, but the ability to bypass it would be a huge difference in penalties IMO.

Some interesting ideas. Basically I've got four or five people all pulling in different directions.

THe orginal idea was to fix the oppses on the offical chart. THen I added a little, then I was asked to add cuirboilli, then someone mentioned more heavy leather.

I think this is heading towards a "basic" and "advanced" table. THe basic will be pretty close to what I have now, with a couple of new armor types but dropping ring (I hate to drop Cuirboilli-it actually is better than ring against anything other that an edged weapon.

I'm thinking that the "advanced table" could break up AP by type (edged, piercing, blunt) and possible go above 6 AP (A 7-8 point scale would have worked for me, and been ideal for getting all the old armor types back into the game, but a lot of RQ2 fans want 6 point plate).

It does make sense to tweak the weapon in tandem with the damages, so I probably should to that with the "advanced" table.

I figure that with two tables I have a better chance of pleasing more people, or at least be assured of getting everything wrong at least once.!
:wink:

 

[Arkat]

However, I have another suggestion. If we're reworking armor, let's rework the weapon tables and armor tables in conjunction with each other. That way we don't have to cap at 6 AP due to weapon damages being too low. Besides, HP are about double per location now, so why not move weapons up a bit here and there if it makes the armor ranges work out.

Also, I think of 6 AP plate as being classic hoplite plate, not medieval articulated plate armor. The base AP would only be 1 or 2 points different, but the ability to bypass it would be a huge difference in penalties IMO.

No for me I'd rather stick with the RQ2 and current RQ rules set. Leave the max at 6pt. We don't need to rewrite the whole armor/weapon tables just add in bits for flavor and correct the flawed parts like skirt/trews.

 

[RMS]

No for me I'd rather stick with the RQ2 and current RQ rules set. Leave the max at 6pt. We don't need to rewrite the whole armor/weapon tables just add in bits for flavor and correct the flawed parts like skirt/trews.

You're no fun! 8) I am a little concerned how weapon damages have gone down and armor up (from RQ3), while HP have gone up and the ability to kill someone has gotten more difficult. In play it might work just fine with lowered AP everywhere.

 

[atgxtg]

No for me I'd rather stick with the RQ2 and current RQ rules set. Leave the max at 6pt. We don't need to rewrite the whole armor/weapon tables just add in bits for flavor and correct the flawed parts like skirt/trews.

So basically you are pleased with the chart I already did. If I just put heavy leather vambraces on it you'll be happy.

 

[Arkat]

Yep and maybe add in slots for Bezainted etc. Oh and organize by location is good.

 

[atgxtg]

Yep and maybe add in slots for Bezainted etc. Oh and organize by location is good.

Well, with a 6 point scale, erh 6 point range, I'd have to drop something out for bezainted. Basically, I would either need to drop cuirboilli, or lower it to 2 AP, or drop out scale at 4 point.

I could boost scale up to 5 (as in RQ2) make Ring 4 point (as in RQ2) and then put bezainted in as ring. Functionally the two are similar.

So something like this?
1 AP= Cloth, Leather
2 AP= Thick Leather
3 AP=Cuirboilli, Linen
4 AP= Bezainted, Ring
5 AP= Scale, Mail, Bridadine
6 AP= Plate

I'll try to squeenze lamellar on the table in the 4-5 point range.

Everyone like?

I'll do an 8 point table too for those who want it, and am serious thinking of doing an cut/pierce/blunt table for AP as well.

 

[Enpeze]

I would use the simple method. Use the minus in the MRQ rulebook and halve it. (is still more than enough penalty, but is easy to calculate)

 

[atgxtg]

I would use the simple method. Use the minus in the MRQ rulebook and halve it. (is still more than enough penalty, but is easy to calculate)

Wrong thread.

THis isn't the one wehre people are going over the armor penalty. Basically we are working on coreecting a few "glitches" in the offical armor chart.

 

[Elandyll]

Yep and maybe add in slots for Bezainted etc. Oh and organize by location is good.

Well, with a 6 point scale, erh 6 point range, I'd have to drop something out for bezainted. Basically, I would either need to drop cuirboilli, or lower it to 2 AP, or drop out scale at 4 point.

I could boost scale up to 5 (as in RQ2) make Ring 4 point (as in RQ2) and then put bezainted in as ring. Functionally the two are similar.

So something like this?
1 AP= Cloth, Leather
2 AP= Thick Leather
3 AP=Cuirboilli, Linen
4 AP= Bezainted, Ring
5 AP= Scale, Mail, Bridadine
6 AP= Plate

I'll try to squeenze lamellar on the table in the 4-5 point range.

Everyone like?

I'll do an 8 point table too for those who want it, and am serious thinking of doing an cut/pierce/blunt table for AP as well.

This table seems more logical. Maybe downing linen to 2 AP ? Not sure if it's really on the same level of protection of Cuir Bouilli (hardened leather for all intent)

P.S: Do you mean Byzantine armor and Brigandine armor ?
And for the leather, it's "Cuir Bouilli"
(just a fyi, I'm not obsessed with spelling hehe)

 

[Rurik]

I would use the simple method. Use the minus in the MRQ rulebook and halve it. (is still more than enough penalty, but is easy to calculate)

Wrong thread.

THis isn't the one wehre people are going over the armor penalty. Basically we are working on coreecting a few "glitches" in the offical armor chart.

Oh, and like you never threadjack!

 

[Enpeze]

I would use the simple method. Use the minus in the MRQ rulebook and halve it. (is still more than enough penalty, but is easy to calculate)

Wrong thread.

THis isn't the one wehre people are going over the armor penalty. Basically we are working on coreecting a few "glitches" in the offical armor chart.

Ah, sorry. I post it over there. I am drinking too much

 

[atgxtg]

This table seems more logical. Maybe downing linen to 2 AP ? Not sure if it's really on the same level of protection of Cuir Bouilli (hardened leather for all intent)

I had Linen @ 3 AP becuase it was at 3 AP in RQ2. BAsically it is quited armor, but waxed and hard-eseentially the same as cuirboilli. It seems to be based on an type of armor worn by the ancient Greeks.

P.S: Do you mean Byzantine armor and Brigandine armor ?
And for the leather, it's "Cuir Bouilli"
(just a fyi, I'm not obsessed with spelling hehe)

No I mean't Bezainted. Byzantine armor is a form of scale. Bezainted armor is leather with metal discs fanten to it. It got it's name from the resemblance of the discs to the bezaint coin. Other names for this type of armor include studded leather and poirpoint.

Bridandine = Brigandine (that was a typo)

As for cuir bouilli (Francasi, nest pas?), I used the one workd description since that was the way it has been referred to in the previous RQ rules. But, since I'm being a strickler with mail, ring and scale rather than chainmail, ringmail and scalemail, I'll make the adjustment to cuir buoilli to please.

To be honest, the armor did go out of exisitence before spelling became stadnardized in any Europoean langauge, so either spelling is probably just as accuate as the other.

I still have to be careful to use Armour rather than Armor.

 

[atgxtg]

I would use the simple method. Use the minus in the MRQ rulebook and halve it. (is still more than enough penalty, but is easy to calculate)

Wrong thread.

THis isn't the one wehre people are going over the armor penalty. Basically we are working on coreecting a few "glitches" in the offical armor chart.

Oh, and like you never threadjack!

SUre, be it looked like he wasn't threadjacking, but discussed topic A in thread B.

It's harder for people to see your repsonses that way. :wink:

 

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Any timescale on your revised armour tables?

I was 'volunteered' yesterday to start a weeknights campaign in mid November (there's too much on at work before then).

I think I want to have a feel mid-way between RQ3 and MRQ. Hence your armour table and (probably) RQ3 weapon damages sound to be about right.

Regards

 

[atgxtg]

Greetings

Any timescale on your revised armour tables?

I was 'volunteered' yesterday to start a weeknights campaign in mid November (there's too much on at work before then).

I think I want to have a feel mid-way between RQ3 and MRQ. Hence your armour table and (probably) RQ3 weapon damages sound to be about right.

Regards

Well I'm hoping on getting the basic 6 point tables finisehd over the weekend. I've got them about half done--now that we seem to have a general consensus of what people want.

I'll be puttting in a couple of different armors at the same AP level. Some will be cheaper but weight more (higher ENC, althout the same skill penalty). The price break will help to make heavy scale useful when chain is lighter.

A more advanced table with either an 8 point range and/or AP vs types of attack (so that Ring will be good against cutting attacks and bad against blunt attacks or pieceing attacks) will be next. THat will take a little longer, but hopefully not to long.

THe real trick is in trying not to differ much from the core book while doing up the tables. I can't understand why plate goes for three times the price of mail.

 

[Elandyll]

No I mean't Bezainted. Byzantine armor is a form of scale. Bezainted armor is leather with metal discs fanten to it. It got it's name from the resemblance of the discs to the bezaint coin. Other names for this type of armor include studded leather and poirpoint.

Bridandine = Brigandine (that was a typo)

As for cuir bouilli (Francasi, nest pas?), I used the one workd description since that was the way it has been referred to in the previous RQ rules. But, since I'm being a strickler with mail, ring and scale rather than chainmail, ringmail and scalemail, I'll make the adjustment to cuir buoilli to please.

To be honest, the armor did go out of exisitence before spelling became stadnardized in any Europoean langauge, so either spelling is probably just as accuate as the other.

I still have to be careful to use Armour rather than Armor. [/quote[

I seem to be only able to find bezainted armor links in relations to role playing and particularly RQ... interesting.

Armors were still in use in the armies in Europe by the time most languages were codified btw (French language was codified in the 1600's).

As per CuirBouilli, the spelling is the way it is , well causei ts actually two words (Cuir = Leather, Bouilli = Boiled) that mean something.
Apparently they were spelling it CuirBolli in RQ2/3, but it was a spelling error -phoentic of CuirBouilli )

Still have my doubts on Linen at AC 3 (half the AC of Metal Plate)...

 

[atgxtg]

I still have to be careful to use Armour rather than Armor. [/quote[

I seem to be only able to find bezainted armor links in relations to role playing and particularly RQ... interesting.

I'll see if I can find you some other links. I've seen the term used elsewhere. The main difficulty is that the armor did go under several other names.

Here is a picture of some:

Okay, I did a little digging into this. Apparently the reason why the term "bezained" isn't used much is because the terms studded leather, brigadine, jack, and ring armor are more popular and describe the same type of armor. Basically, it's metal attacked to a leather backing. The main differences seem to be the quntity of the metal, shape, and how it is attached to the undergarmet (or in rare cases it is made without an undergarment)

In fact, if you carry the trend on, you find little difference between bezatinted, ring, studded, scale, and brigadine. Probably could lump them all in together as 4 point armor without being unfair.

Basically the difference in protection probably depends on how much metal in in the garment.

Armors were still in use in the armies in Europe by the time most languages were codified btw (French language was codified in the 1600's).

But the codes were not followed for some time later. Look at English, it was still a mess with lots of differences in spelling up to the 19th centry-at least. Even today, it isn't unfied. Armor vs. Armour.

As per CuirBouilli, the spelling is the way it is , well causei ts actually two words (Cuir = Leather, Bouilli = Boiled) that mean something.
Apparently they were spelling it CuirBolli in RQ2/3, but it was a spelling error -phoentic of CuirBouilli )

Still have my doubts on Linen at AC 3 (half the AC of Metal Plate)...

I don't blame you. One thing I will say is it is best not to look at the damages as linear-that is 6 point armor stopping twice as much as 3 point armor. By that line of reasoning, I'd have a hard time with heavy leather having a 2, or maybe even leather having a 1.

Linen armor consisted of several layers of linen. There are indications that it might have provided better protection than metal against arrows. Apparently the linen can soak up a lot of kinetic enegy, much like a modern ballstic vest. The 3 AP was/is enoguh to stop most RQ2 arrows.


One big problem with most armor classifications is that gamers tend to use very spefic classifications, when the historcial models were more boradly defnined. For instance, there is indication that metal or leather reinforcement was used in the comnstrcution of some linen armor, and that some linen was also used as a foundation for slace. Depedning on the source, these might all be marked down as "linen".

 

[RMS]

But the codes were not followed for some time later. Look at English, it was still a mess with lots of differences in spelling up to the 19th centry-at least. Even today, it isn't unfied. Armor vs. Armour.

Just try to read original documents from the American Revolution and see how far you get! They can be read of course, but spellings and even letter meanings have changed enough to make it a chore to read. English isn't really codified until the 19th century and of course American English has one code and UK English has another (lots of extraneous vowels, as you note ).

Before that, I don't know that there's any code other than what's set down for use in King James' Bible, but could be wrong.