Armor Issues & House-Rules
- Thread starter Golan2072
- Start date
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
Reflec should be higher IMHO - from a setting POV, lasers are supposed to SUCK against Reflec, and remember that lasers have more damage dice than firearms. A laser rifle (5d6) does 17.5 points of damage on average even on Effect 0. So Armor 18 against lasers (and no armor against anything else) would be good, and Armor 20 probably better.FallingPhoenix said:
Reflec using the standard damage rules doesn't really feel right to me, I'd rather see something along the lines of a completely separate save, eg: roll 2d6, if less equal or less than the suits integrity* the laser shot hits a reflective part of the suit and is negated, if the roll is more than the integrity it finds a hole and inflicts full damage to the wearer.
* start with 11 for a new suit, have it drop by 1 point for every non-laser attack that hits the wearer.
* start with 11 for a new suit, have it drop by 1 point for every non-laser attack that hits the wearer.
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
I think the objective of the combat system was to create something lean and simple.
I would say that the armour values only need to be boosted by a few points.
Flak vest should start at 5, Cloth at 10, Cbt Armour at 15, and Battle Dress at 20. Pretty similar to the suggestions above.
I've been thinking about things like a penetration rating for weapons, but I think in the end this just adds complexity without adding much utility. Just adding to damage accomplishes the same thing.
Some folk might object to this, but having an AP value that reduces Armour Rating is pretty much the same thing as just adding to damage. It's only a bit different when you compare hitting an armoured opponent to an unarmoured one, given the range of numbers involved, and the ubiquity of armour, and really, combat should be deadly for the unarmoured.
Special armour piercing ammo could just halve the armour rating (the opposite of the way shotgun pellets are treated), and hi-ex rounds could just add a 1d6 to damage. Good candidates for options in Mercenary.
Remember, armour penetration is only at all relevant to projectile weapons. For lasers and plasma/fusion weaponry, penetration is the same as damage.
I would say that the armour values only need to be boosted by a few points.
Flak vest should start at 5, Cloth at 10, Cbt Armour at 15, and Battle Dress at 20. Pretty similar to the suggestions above.
I've been thinking about things like a penetration rating for weapons, but I think in the end this just adds complexity without adding much utility. Just adding to damage accomplishes the same thing.
Some folk might object to this, but having an AP value that reduces Armour Rating is pretty much the same thing as just adding to damage. It's only a bit different when you compare hitting an armoured opponent to an unarmoured one, given the range of numbers involved, and the ubiquity of armour, and really, combat should be deadly for the unarmoured.
Special armour piercing ammo could just halve the armour rating (the opposite of the way shotgun pellets are treated), and hi-ex rounds could just add a 1d6 to damage. Good candidates for options in Mercenary.
Remember, armour penetration is only at all relevant to projectile weapons. For lasers and plasma/fusion weaponry, penetration is the same as damage.
Golan2072 said:
Looking through some of the older Traveller versions showed your assessment to be mostly correct. For example, under MT, any laser <= TL9 will bounce off of Reflec. Light laser weaponry at TL13 will also bounce and only the rifle will be effective, treating the armor as if it doesn't exist.
Weapon vs. armor effects in original CT are pretty much the same though Reflec is more effective vs lasers than combat armor is. All in all, it seems to me that raising Reflec's armor value vs. lasers to 20 seems to be logical.
Surprisingly, CT's Ablat armor is only slightly less effective vs lasers than Reflec and more effective vs. lasers than Combat Armor. MT has Ablat only about half as effective as Reflec.
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
Don't you add Reflec to any existing armour?
FallingPhoenix
Mongoose
SSWarlock said:
Give Reflec 20 versus lasers and you'll have the MT ratio with Ablat. Sounds good to me, for what it's worth!
FP, who appears to have a great mind (assuming SSWarlock does).
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
The relationships between armor types in CT were:
Jack was useful against most melee attacks (except for hooves, thrashers, clubs, swords, broadswords and cudgels) but utterly useless against firearms.
Mesh was almost as good as Cloth vs. melee weapons and the same as Cloth vs. lasers, but far less effective vs. firearms.
Cloth was effective against almost any melee weapon or small arm, but not very effective against lasers and PGMP-12 ineffective vs. LBB4 HEAP RAM grenades and really heavy weapons (autocannons, FGMPs, VRF Gauss).
Vacc Suit worn in combat was the same as Cloth.
Reflec was extremely effective against lasers (DM -8 to hit, meaning that hitting it with a laser was nearly impossible), a bit effective vs. a few melee weapons, as effective as Cloth vs. body pistols and useless against anything else. It was more effective than Combat Armor against lasers. Reflec could be worn over other armor, and in LBB8 you could polish other types of robot armor to Reflec standards.
Ablat was a bit weaker than Mesh against non-laser attacks (except for Claws, Teeth, Horns, Spears and Pikes, against whom it was better than Cloth!) but almost as effective as Reflec - and a bit better than Combat Armor - against lasers (DM -7). It was also completely ineffective against heavy LBB4 weapons (autocannons, plasma/fusion, VRF). Ablat was supposed to degrade under fire but IIRC there were no rules for this in CT.
Combat Armor and Battledress were synonymous in regard to armor - the difference was that Battledress was powered.
Flack Jacket was somewhere in the middle between Mesh and Cloth.
CT had no HVAC; MT has it somewhere in the middle between Cloth and Combat Armor.
The Bottom Line:
- Jack should be weak - OK against weak melee attacks, but firearms (or stronger melee attacks) would easily overcome it.
- Mesh should be pretty effective against most low-damage attacks (such as most melee attacks) but only marginally effective vs. firearms.
- Cloth should be effective against most melee and small-arm attacks, but not against high-damage attacks such as bigger lasers or F/PGMP's or RAMs.
- Vacc Suit should have the same armor rating of Cloth at its TL.
- Reflec should be HIGHLY effective against laser and ineffective (or marginally effective?) against anything else. It should also be better than Combat Armor vs. lasers.
- Ablat should be about as good as Mesh against non-laser attacks and a bit less effective than Reflec (but a bit better than Combat armor) vs. lasers.
- Combat Armor and Battledress of the same TL should have the same armor value.
- HVAC should be somewhere in the middle between Cloth and Combat Armor.
Jack was useful against most melee attacks (except for hooves, thrashers, clubs, swords, broadswords and cudgels) but utterly useless against firearms.
Mesh was almost as good as Cloth vs. melee weapons and the same as Cloth vs. lasers, but far less effective vs. firearms.
Cloth was effective against almost any melee weapon or small arm, but not very effective against lasers and PGMP-12 ineffective vs. LBB4 HEAP RAM grenades and really heavy weapons (autocannons, FGMPs, VRF Gauss).
Vacc Suit worn in combat was the same as Cloth.
Reflec was extremely effective against lasers (DM -8 to hit, meaning that hitting it with a laser was nearly impossible), a bit effective vs. a few melee weapons, as effective as Cloth vs. body pistols and useless against anything else. It was more effective than Combat Armor against lasers. Reflec could be worn over other armor, and in LBB8 you could polish other types of robot armor to Reflec standards.
Ablat was a bit weaker than Mesh against non-laser attacks (except for Claws, Teeth, Horns, Spears and Pikes, against whom it was better than Cloth!) but almost as effective as Reflec - and a bit better than Combat Armor - against lasers (DM -7). It was also completely ineffective against heavy LBB4 weapons (autocannons, plasma/fusion, VRF). Ablat was supposed to degrade under fire but IIRC there were no rules for this in CT.
Combat Armor and Battledress were synonymous in regard to armor - the difference was that Battledress was powered.
Flack Jacket was somewhere in the middle between Mesh and Cloth.
CT had no HVAC; MT has it somewhere in the middle between Cloth and Combat Armor.
The Bottom Line:
- Jack should be weak - OK against weak melee attacks, but firearms (or stronger melee attacks) would easily overcome it.
- Mesh should be pretty effective against most low-damage attacks (such as most melee attacks) but only marginally effective vs. firearms.
- Cloth should be effective against most melee and small-arm attacks, but not against high-damage attacks such as bigger lasers or F/PGMP's or RAMs.
- Vacc Suit should have the same armor rating of Cloth at its TL.
- Reflec should be HIGHLY effective against laser and ineffective (or marginally effective?) against anything else. It should also be better than Combat Armor vs. lasers.
- Ablat should be about as good as Mesh against non-laser attacks and a bit less effective than Reflec (but a bit better than Combat armor) vs. lasers.
- Combat Armor and Battledress of the same TL should have the same armor value.
- HVAC should be somewhere in the middle between Cloth and Combat Armor.
Gruffty the Hiver
Banded Mongoose
Didn't Striker and MT (as well as T4) have values for armour, much akin to the above? (really can't be arsed to check myself, at the moment!)
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes, they had, though these were used with a penetration-based system rather than for damage absorption (as in MGT). In Mega Traveller:Gruffty the Hiver said:
Jack: 1 against melee only
Mesh: 2
Flack: 3
Cloth: 5
Ablat: 6 vs. laser, 1 vs. the rest
Reflec: 10 vs. laser only
Vacc Suit (TL8): 5
Vacc Suit (TL12): 6
Vacc Suit (TL14): 7
HVAC (TL8): 6
HVAC (TL9): 7
HVAC (TL12): 8
HVAC (TL13): 9
HVAC (TL14): 10
Combat Armor (TL11): 8
Combat Armor (TL12): 10
Combat Armor (TL14): 18
Battledress (TL13): 10
Battledress (TL14): 18
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
I suggest the following armor values to replace the ones in the p.87 table:
Jack (TL1): 3
Mesh (TL6): 6
Flak Jacket (TL7): 8
Flak Jacket (TL8): 10
Cloth (TL7): 10
Cloth (TL10): 12
Vacc Suit (TL8): 10
Vacc Suit (TL12): 13
Vacc Suit (TL14): 15
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL8): 12
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL9): 13
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL12): 15
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL13): 16
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL14): 17
Ablat (TL9): 5 (18 against lasers)
Reflec (TL10): 0 (24 against lasers)
Combat Armor (TL11): 15
Combat Armor (TL12): 18
Combat Armor (TL14): 20
Battle Dress (TL13): 18
Battle Dress (TL14): 20
---
Rationale:
- Jack should stop the average damage of an unarmed attack (1d6) with Effect 0, that is 3.5 points of damage on average. It has very minor effect on more powerful weapons, especially slug-throwers. It could block a bullet if you roll minimal damage (3) and have an effect of 0 - representing a bullet passing near you and scratching you. An average rifle shot with Effect 0 - 10.5 damage - would still reduce an average character's Endurance (7) to zero even if he was wearing Jack. The same goes to heavier melee weapons as well.
- Mesh should stop a club's or a daggers's average damage (Effect 0) more or less completely. A club does 2d6 (average 7), a dagger does 1d6+2 (average 5.5). So armor 6 works; and it also provides some protection against bullets, especially pistol ones.
- Flack Jacket is a watered-down version of Cloth. It should stop completely a pistol round with Effect 0 (3d6-3, average damage 7.5), and thus is pretty effective against melee weapons (many of which do 2d6 damage, average 7). At TL8 it could stop a rifle round with average damage and Effect 0 (3d6, average 10.5) or a pistol round with Effect 2 and average damage.
- Cloth should stop a rifle round (3d6, average 10.5) with Effect 0. It should also be very effective against most melee weapons and quite effective against pistols. At TL10 it could stop a rifle round with average damage and Effect 2.
- Vacc Suit at TL8 is similar to Cloth at TL7. At TL12, a Vacc Suit is a bit better than Cloth at TL10, but not by much. At TL14, it gives quite good protection.
- Hostile Environment Vacc Suit is a bit better than Vacc Suit or Cloth of similar TL, but is still less effective than Combat armor/BD.
- Ablat should be slightly less effective than Mesh against non-laser damage, and slightly less effective than Reflec against lasers (but still better than TL11 Combat Armor/BD). It should block the maximum damage of a laser pistol (3d6, max damage 18) with effect 0
- Reflec offers the best anti-laser defense around. Period. Never, ever attempt to shoot a laser at it - you'll rarely cause any damage. It should block the maximum damage of a laser carbine (4d6, max 24) at Effect 0.
- Combat Armor (TL11) should stop maximum pistol damage with Effect 0 (3d6-3, max 15). At TL12 it should stop a rifle round with maximum damage and Effect 0 (3d6, max 18). At TL14 it should stop a rifle shot with Effect 2 (20). Battle Dress has the same armor levels of Combat Armor at the same TL but is also powered.
Jack (TL1): 3
Mesh (TL6): 6
Flak Jacket (TL7): 8
Flak Jacket (TL8): 10
Cloth (TL7): 10
Cloth (TL10): 12
Vacc Suit (TL8): 10
Vacc Suit (TL12): 13
Vacc Suit (TL14): 15
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL8): 12
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL9): 13
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL12): 15
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL13): 16
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL14): 17
Ablat (TL9): 5 (18 against lasers)
Reflec (TL10): 0 (24 against lasers)
Combat Armor (TL11): 15
Combat Armor (TL12): 18
Combat Armor (TL14): 20
Battle Dress (TL13): 18
Battle Dress (TL14): 20
---
Rationale:
- Jack should stop the average damage of an unarmed attack (1d6) with Effect 0, that is 3.5 points of damage on average. It has very minor effect on more powerful weapons, especially slug-throwers. It could block a bullet if you roll minimal damage (3) and have an effect of 0 - representing a bullet passing near you and scratching you. An average rifle shot with Effect 0 - 10.5 damage - would still reduce an average character's Endurance (7) to zero even if he was wearing Jack. The same goes to heavier melee weapons as well.
- Mesh should stop a club's or a daggers's average damage (Effect 0) more or less completely. A club does 2d6 (average 7), a dagger does 1d6+2 (average 5.5). So armor 6 works; and it also provides some protection against bullets, especially pistol ones.
- Flack Jacket is a watered-down version of Cloth. It should stop completely a pistol round with Effect 0 (3d6-3, average damage 7.5), and thus is pretty effective against melee weapons (many of which do 2d6 damage, average 7). At TL8 it could stop a rifle round with average damage and Effect 0 (3d6, average 10.5) or a pistol round with Effect 2 and average damage.
- Cloth should stop a rifle round (3d6, average 10.5) with Effect 0. It should also be very effective against most melee weapons and quite effective against pistols. At TL10 it could stop a rifle round with average damage and Effect 2.
- Vacc Suit at TL8 is similar to Cloth at TL7. At TL12, a Vacc Suit is a bit better than Cloth at TL10, but not by much. At TL14, it gives quite good protection.
- Hostile Environment Vacc Suit is a bit better than Vacc Suit or Cloth of similar TL, but is still less effective than Combat armor/BD.
- Ablat should be slightly less effective than Mesh against non-laser damage, and slightly less effective than Reflec against lasers (but still better than TL11 Combat Armor/BD). It should block the maximum damage of a laser pistol (3d6, max damage 18) with effect 0
- Reflec offers the best anti-laser defense around. Period. Never, ever attempt to shoot a laser at it - you'll rarely cause any damage. It should block the maximum damage of a laser carbine (4d6, max 24) at Effect 0.
- Combat Armor (TL11) should stop maximum pistol damage with Effect 0 (3d6-3, max 15). At TL12 it should stop a rifle round with maximum damage and Effect 0 (3d6, max 18). At TL14 it should stop a rifle shot with Effect 2 (20). Battle Dress has the same armor levels of Combat Armor at the same TL but is also powered.
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
I've never been sure why Vacc Suits get better armour at higher TLs - all the descriptions of Vacc Suits that I've read say that they are actually getting lighter and more like normal clothing as TLs get higher, if anything it seems that their armour rating should drop as TLs improve.
Mark
Mark
d(sqrt(-1)) said:
They also are made of tougher materials, and that improves their lifespans. Incidentally, it also improves their value-as-armor.
I had a thought, tho, on armor:
Points per die
Jack (TL1): 1
Mesh (TL6): 2
Flak Jacket (TL7): 2.5
Flak Jacket (TL8): 3
Cloth (TL7): 3.5
Cloth (TL10): 4
Vacc Suit (TL8): 2.5
Vacc Suit (TL12): 3
Vacc Suit (TL14): 3.5
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL8): 3
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL9): 3.5
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL12): 4
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL13): 4.5
Hostile Environment Vacc Suit (TL14): 5
Ablat (TL9): 1 (4 against lasers)
Reflec (TL10): 0 (5.5 against lasers)
Combat Armor (TL11): 6
Combat Armor (TL12): 6.5
Combat Armor (TL14): 7
Battle Dress (TL13): 6.5
Battle Dress (TL14): 7
But also make the success level add per die as well.
Dom: Some of us think T4's damage system sucked pretty badly, especially in dealing with shotguns and AP weapons.
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
AKAramis said:
This is true, but it's also thinner and more flexible, its main advancements being towards manoeuverability rather than protection, I would have thought. Dunno, it just seems that protection vs flying lead/needles/plasma etc wouldn't be the main consideration. Besides, at high TLs, why not just wear your Vacc Suit all the time?
Mark
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
Protection is mostly against micrometeorites, suit puncture by sharp surfaces and, more importantly, the suit has to be strong enough to contain the pressure differences between its inside and the vacuum of space.d(sqrt(-1)) said:
Why not, if you're on a combat or exploration spacecraft which might have to depressurize at short notice due to combat preparation? You'll wear the suit all the time (at the very least when you're on shift) sans the gloves and the helmets. The gloves would be tucked in your belt, the helmet would be placed near your station. When you have to be vacuum-ready, just wear and seal the gloves and screw on the helmet. On high TLs, the light and comfortable vacc suit becomes your duty uniform.
SableWyvern
Mongoose
Golan2072 said:
Exactly. Why not wear a comfortable, protective vac suit as armour? I dare say many do, because it makes sense.
As to armouring, I know that -- assuming the technology is available -- I'd prefer a vac suit highly resistant to micro-meteorites, shrapnel from the cooling system explosion, the super-sharp edge I just dragged my arm along, the white-hot beam I've just cut and the plasma lance I was cutting it with.
