Armageddon for the Dilgar

[djclark]

Before you read the following I wish to say that I love ACTA.

BUT

"When other licensees need information on ship configurations or weapons capabilities we refered them to Agents of Gaming books.... when we were in production and I was not available to answer a specific question on an area cover by AOG people went to the AOG books."
"If you want the Real Deal, if you want accuracy amd the best of the best when it comes to B5 you have come to the right place."

JMS in B5W Compendium.

 

[Tank]

Just a couple of points

1: The Dilgar were comprehensively beaten not just contained, this was due to there overstretch, EA invlovement (and by the way EA did have as good as if not superior tactics & strategy) and Markab fanatiscism.

2: Cant really release new Drakh ships when they've not been out long and their game mechanics havent been fully and comprehensively picked apart by the player community.

3. Drakh & Dilgar are still competitive, you doubt me? No Armaggeddon level ship for early era EA, stop feeling hard done by.

4: Dilgar close in specialists, thats what they do, they have the weapons, special rules and ad to prove this. Every Race has there own particular style.

Of course next year with ACTA v2 tweaks and ship additions may well happen, I dont play Drakh, neither does my mate but we bought the Drakh book, EA-Minbari war book, unlikely to use the contents but bought it anyway, my own Dilgar fleet, still building but I do have the book. Actually we have all the rules just to be comprehensive and we share when we go to tourneys, no probs.

 

[TenaciousB]

stop whining so much and use the stuff you have, and wait for new stuff as they wont just abandon a race.

Way to throw mud there and be constructive, Katadder.

I'm not whining - I'm concerned about the game that I love, and I realise that by airing my concerns, change may happen.

I'm not going to sit by and watch as everyone goes on and on about the stuff they got in a game expansion, whilst I got nothing. If the attitude of the company is to feed the likes of the Dilgar and Drakh players dribs and drabs of stuff occasionally just to keep us happy, then maybe I'll treat the company exactly the same way and wait til next year (or the next expansion - hah!) to give them my money.

The fact of the matter is that the Drakh and Dilgar (plus a few others, but most of the races have been represented) got nothing with this game expansion. Also to note, from what I can gather, not all the new ships were of Armageddon level, so not only did we not get any Armageddon-level ships, we got bugger-all in the rest of the priorities.

People can paint the picture whatever way they like here, but the bottom line is that certain races were neglected, and those players got the shaft, possibly in the short term, but still shafted nevertheless. I know the Drakh and Dilgar MIGHT get something in the future in S&P, a lot of the players still got naff-all NOW and are rightly pi$$ed off.

 

[Tank]

So the obviously stated reason why the Drakh & Dilgar got nothing aren't actually relevant?

 

[tneva82]

I'm not going to sit by and watch as everyone goes on and on about the stuff they got in a game expansion,

How much stuff Minbari got in Dilgar book? Or centauri? League of non-aligned world?

Did EA get anything in Drakh book?

Where came this notion that each new rulebook contains something for each and every race anyway?

 

[Nomad]

Well, if there's three lists for EA, maybe there needs to be two lists for the Dilgar - a historical list for c2230, and a 'What If' list for later battles.

One thing that suprised me about the new EA lists is that the ships that exist in more than one period - particularly the vanilla Hyperion Heavy Cruiser - don't change at all.

The USAF was flying B52s over Vietnam and still flies B52s today, but in terms of the weapons they carry and what they can do, they've evolved almost out of recognition. The RAF was flying Spitfires in 1945 that were 100 mph faster than the ones it had five years earlier.

For ACtA v2, I'd suggest that as well as getting new ship types, EA should upgrade their existing designs. For example, would Dilgar War Hyperions have had heavy laser cannon? they didn't in B5W, that was a refit that arrived (courtesy of the Narns) during the Minbari war.

 

[tneva82]

For ACtA v2, I'd suggest that as well as getting new ship types, EA should upgrade their existing designs. For example, would Dilgar War Hyperions have had heavy laser cannon? they didn't in B5W, that was a refit that arrived (courtesy of the Narns) during the Minbari war.

Well Mongoose is trying probably to keep ship # in some check. If there would start come out lots of variations there would be practically no end We could easily multiply by 3-4 current fleet choice amount for each race if not more :wink:

Not that I mind more variations, those would be good for home use, but for tournament use that would probably be major pain to balance out.

 

[TenaciousB]

So the obviously stated reason why the Drakh & Dilgar got nothing aren't actually relevant?

I didn't say it wasn't relevant - as a consumer, I'm very disappointed. I'm allowed to be, considering I've invested a lot of time and money into this game. I'm not saying I've spent more or less than anyone else, but as well as all the praise for the expansion in the forums, I should be allowed to voice my opinion on matters of the game that concern me, in the hope that, in the future, something can be done about similar problems sooner rather than later.

How much stuff Minbari got in Dilgar book? Or centauri? League of non-aligned world?

Did EA get anything in Drakh book?

Where came this notion that each new rulebook contains something for each and every race anyway?

Slightly different situation there, but if people were offended about no content for their races in the Drakh/Dilgar books, they should have exercised their right to air their concerns at the time. :wink:

 

[TenaciousB]

Oh yeah, sorry about the double post, but just thought of something that needs to be said.

For all those people that say the Dilgar shouldn't ever get any other ships, ever, because they aren't around anymore?

Remember that the Vorlons, Shadows and Ancients aren't technically around anymore either - they passed "Beyond the Rim" with Lorien. :wink:

 

[Nomad]

Well Mongoose is trying probably to keep ship # in some check.

It would probably add at most two variants each for the Hyperion and the Orion base, one each for the Nova, Oracle and Sagittarius. Hardly excessive.

And since Hyperion variants already exist at three different Priority Levels, I think the balancing pain might be bearable.

 

[lastbesthope]

Hey, I'm Minbari, I got totally screwed over by the Armageddon changes! Stealth now blows, fighters can gank my low-hulled ships easily because they ignore stealth totally

Not totally, only within 1"

Hmm, so maybe it is best for a weak dogfighter to take on Nials and Tishats at ranges of less than 1" rather than a dogfight...?

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

Tenacious, you seem to be getting awfully worked up, I understand you are unhappy that there was, to your mind, insufficient new material for the Dilgar in Armageddon but I feel a few replies to some of your points are warranted:

Thanks a lot, Mongoose - I've just spend the best part of 150 quid on my Dilgar fleet, hoping to bolster it with something big and nasty to be "competitive" with the other races. Now I'm told I'm not getting anything bigger than my Mankhats or Mishakurs? Are you guys freaking serious???? :evil: :evil:

You bought into a game in full knowledge of the existing ruleset and with uncertain knowledge of any future rulesets, the same as any of us. You payed your money and you took your chance. If what you had wasn't enough then you should have waited to spend your money.

Here's another question - what's the point in releasing the Armageddon supplement now, when the revised V2 of the game is coming out next year anyway? Seems like a good way of ripping people off twice, especially if you're a Dilgar or Drakh player.

Mongoose have said one major update a year, you don't want it noone makes you buy it.

For all those people that say the Dilgar shouldn't ever get any other ships, ever, because they aren't around anymore?

Remember that the Vorlons, Shadows and Ancients aren't technically around anymore either - they passed "Beyond the Rim" with Lorien. :wink:

Well the Vorlons and Shadows have not had any new ships since SFOS, just updated stats.

As for the ancients, they didn't get new ships in Armageddon, any more than the Shadows did in SFOS, they got a fleet list of already existing within the B5 universe, but not in the ACTA game ships.

LBH

 

[thePirv]

How much stuff Minbari got in Dilgar book? Or centauri? League of non-aligned world?

Did EA get anything in Drakh book?

Where came this notion that each new rulebook contains something for each and every race anyway?

What the hell are you talking about. The Drakh and Dilgar books are specialised books which added new specific races to the game.

Armageddon is an OVERALL expansion to the game with updated rules and expansions to most of the Fleet lists. I'm simply saying that is should have had something for everyone. Is a desire to be included with the rest of the community in a MAJOR expansion such a bad thing?


And Tank, as to the fact that the Dilgar and Drakh are only new and therefore don't deserve anything is pure BS! Just because they're the new kids on the block, they don't deserve to be supported! Hardly. One new ship each to make sure the ENTIRE community benefits equally from a new expansion we're all expected to buy is hardly an unfair request.

Yes, people are still getting a feel for the Dilgar and Drakh. And now people are getting used to the changes Armageddon brings. Why not allow Dilgar and Drakh players to get used to using Armageddon level ships at the same time as getting a feel for the respective fleets. That way everyone is on an equal footing.

Why are people so dead set against Dilgar and Drakh players getting the same level of inclusion that anyone else gets? What's the big problem?

 

[TenaciousB]

Tenacious, you seem to be getting awfully worked up, I understand you are unhappy that there was, to your mind, insufficient new material for the Dilgar in Armageddon but I feel a few replies to some of your points are warranted

To my mind? Its as plain as the nose on my face that the Dilgar and Drakh got bugger-all.

You bought into a game in full knowledge of the existing ruleset and with uncertain knowledge of any future rulesets, the same as any of us. You payed your money and you took your chance. If what you had wasn't enough then you should have waited to spend your money.

Yes, I bought into the game, and because of that, I'm allowed to be pi$$ed off that my favourite race got excluded. I didn't take ANY chances - there shouldn't have been ANY exclusions, full stop.

Mongoose have said one major update a year, you don't want it noone makes you buy it.

Nice quote from someone who's an ambassador for the Mongoose name. You're supposed to be a mod - that comes with responsibilities, one of which, I'm sure, is to be impartial and unconfrontational. With that statement, you failed on both counts.

As a consumer of this product, I should have the right to state how I feel on subjects that affect me, or in this case, DON'T affect me. Its amazing how many people have come onto this thread and told me and a few others to "stop whining" and other helpful, confrontational posts. Clearly those people don't play with any of the unaffected races. Maybe if I was part of the "chosen elite few" that exists within this forum, I would get treated differently.

Well the Vorlons and Shadows have not had any new ships since SFOS, just updated stats.

As for the ancients, they didn't get new ships in Armageddon, any more than the Shadows did in SFOS, they got a fleet list of already existing within the B5 universe, but not in the ACTA game ships.

I wasn't making the point about new ships - I was making the point about how hypocritical people have been by stating that the Dilgar SHOULDN'T get anything new, ever, at all.

 

[Davesaint]

How much stuff Minbari got in Dilgar book? Or centauri? League of non-aligned world?

Did EA get anything in Drakh book?

Where came this notion that each new rulebook contains something for each and every race anyway?

What the hell are you talking about. The Drakh and Dilgar books are specialised books which added new specific races to the game.

Armageddon is an OVERALL expansion to the game with updated rules and expansions to most of the Fleet lists. I'm simply saying that is should have had something for everyone. Is a desire to be included with the rest of the community in a MAJOR expansion such a bad thing?


And Tank, as to the fact that the Dilgar and Drakh are only new and therefore don't deserve anything is pure BS! Just because they're the new kids on the block, they don't deserve to be supported! Hardly. One new ship each to make sure the ENTIRE community benefits equally from a new expansion we're all expected to buy is hardly an unfair request.

Yes, people are still getting a feel for the Dilgar and Drakh. And now people are getting used to the changes Armageddon brings. Why not allow Dilgar and Drakh players to get used to using Armageddon level ships at the same time as getting a feel for the respective fleets. That way everyone is on an equal footing.

Why are people so dead set against Dilgar and Drakh players getting the same level of inclusion that anyone else gets? What's the big problem?

Well it depends on a couple of things.

1st - The group of players who follow the strict "fluff" historical timeline of the game would tell you that the Dilgar won't get anything because they are a dead race. The Drahk aren't getting anything because the mothership is the giagantic ship you see in the show, thus there is nothing left to expand to.

2nd - The group of wargamers who are looking at the Dilgar and the Drakh are looking at the balance issues that may already exist in the 2 races and are saying "don't make any changes yet." Wait until we are sure that what is out there is balanced before we introduce new ships to their fleets

Frankly I might not buy the Armageddon product as I am very concerned over the rules changes and balance issues that many of the ships seem to have.

I am an ISA player and I have serious concerns over the new fighter rules, especially with what I have heard about the whitestar fighter.

On the other hand, in our group we have a rabid Dilgar player, and I have serious concerns with the balance of the Targrath.

I have only played against the Drakh a handful of times, so I don't have a real good feel for their playbalance yet.

If you are interested in more stuff for the Dilgar, look for Rbax's supplement First To Fall. You should be able to locate it in a search on the ACTA forums. There are some interesting things in there. If you can't find it, PM me and I can forward it to you.


Dave

 

[Slightly Norse John]

There are rules tweaks. For one, planetary assaults now become practical for the Dilgar thanks to the atmospheric Thorun. They weren't before, because they were stellar at one half of 'bombard and strafe', and pants at the other half. Now they can shoot the troops on the ground, and virus them as well, killing them off at a decent rate.
Major change to the Shadows and Vorlons was very necessary, no probs there- although I do think they've stranded them too far up the PL scale.
Most races get a little out of Armageddon, one or two new ships.
The ancients...I'm reserving judgement.
I'm more worried about the races that have had a great deal done for them, because a lot of it seems to have been done to them. I'm not sure which scares me more, the Skirmish- level Saggy for being horrendously over- powered for it's rating, or the three shadowtech- influenced black elephants at the other end of the scale. At least two of Nemesis, Warlock, Shadow Omega are redundant, and I would be very surprised if a late EA force could survive against an early era.
If anybody really wants a radical rewrite of the dilgar fleet list, do it and post it. See how it gets recieved. We are the gaming community; we do have a right to bitch and grumble, but surely that goes with a responsibility to suggest alternatives and look for fixes?

 

[lastbesthope]

Tenacious, you seem to be getting awfully worked up, I understand you are unhappy that there was, to your mind, insufficient new material for the Dilgar in Armageddon but I feel a few replies to some of your points are warranted

To my mind? Its as plain as the nose on my face that the Dilgar and Drakh got bugger-all.

Well unless you're roaming around as an unregistered teep or have court orders for scans I don't think you can speak to the mind of anyone else :lol:

You bought into a game in full knowledge of the existing ruleset and with uncertain knowledge of any future rulesets, the same as any of us. You payed your money and you took your chance. If what you had wasn't enough then you should have waited to spend your money.

Yes, I bought into the game, and because of that, I'm allowed to be pi$$ed off that my favourite race got excluded. I didn't take ANY chances - there shouldn't have been ANY exclusions, full stop.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to be in whatever emotional state you choose, I'm just pointing out that noone, to my knowledge, promised anything new for the Dilgar in Armageddon. You did take a chance, as did we all I didn't know what would happen to my beloved White Stars before i picked to play ISA in the recent ItF II tourney under Armageddon rules I didn't have access to at the time of choice. Noone is going to stop you playing your own games by whichever version of existing or house rules you want to implement.

Mongoose have said one major update a year, you don't want it noone makes you buy it.

Nice quote from someone who's an ambassador for the Mongoose name. You're supposed to be a mod - that comes with responsibilities, one of which, I'm sure, is to be impartial and unconfrontational. With that statement, you failed on both counts.

1) It wasn't a quote.
2) Yes I'm on the demo teams, this does not make me a mindless automaton (sorry you used the word ambassasor), following the company line blindly. Why at the very last tourney I made a pointed comment about the way the WS has been messed around since it's creation, directly to Matthew who still thinks the original stats are fine as was.
3) Yes I'm a mod. This does not preclude me having my own opinions and expressing them, so long as I do not use my mod powers to prevent others doing the same. When I act on here as a mod I make it clear, the rest of the time I'm just being me. I see no failure here.

As a consumer of this product, I should have the right to state how I feel on subjects that affect me, or in this case, DON'T affect me. Its amazing how many people have come onto this thread and told me and a few others to "stop whining" and other helpful, confrontational posts. Clearly those people don't play with any of the unaffected races. Maybe if I was part of the "chosen elite few" that exists within this forum, I would get treated differently.

I never said you couldn't express yourself, you stated your opinions, I stated mine, others stated theirs. As for a 'chosen elite few' I'm not sure what you mean, yes soime of the forum members are mods/playtesters/MI/one or more of the above but we are all gamers first and foremost. I can't speak for others but I do my best to treat everyone with the respect they have earned as an individual in my experience of them, their position in Mongoose's various official and unofficial structures notwithstanding. Yourself included. You have on ocassion in the past gone out of your way to be confrontational on these forums, this may or may not be affecting how people respond to/interpret your posts.

Well the Vorlons and Shadows have not had any new ships since SFOS, just updated stats.

As for the ancients, they didn't get new ships in Armageddon, any more than the Shadows did in SFOS, they got a fleet list of already existing within the B5 universe, but not in the ACTA game ships.

I wasn't making the point about new ships - I was making the point about how hypocritical people have been by stating that the Dilgar SHOULDN'T get anything new, ever, at all.

It seemed like you were making a point about new ships, I apologise if I misinterpreted that.

LBH

 

[thePirv]

Well it depends on a couple of things.

1st - The group of players who follow the strict "fluff" historical timeline of the game would tell you that the Dilgar won't get anything because they are a dead race. The Drahk aren't getting anything because the mothership is the giagantic ship you see in the show, thus there is nothing left to expand to.

2nd - The group of wargamers who are looking at the Dilgar and the Drakh are looking at the balance issues that may already exist in the 2 races and are saying "don't make any changes yet." Wait until we are sure that what is out there is balanced before we introduce new ships to their fleets

Frankly I might not buy the Armageddon product as I am very concerned over the rules changes and balance issues that many of the ships seem to have.

I am an ISA player and I have serious concerns over the new fighter rules, especially with what I have heard about the whitestar fighter.

On the other hand, in our group we have a rabid Dilgar player, and I have serious concerns with the balance of the Targrath.

I have only played against the Drakh a handful of times, so I don't have a real good feel for their playbalance yet.

If you are interested in more stuff for the Dilgar, look for Rbax's supplement First To Fall. You should be able to locate it in a search on the ACTA forums. There are some interesting things in there. If you can't find it, PM me and I can forward it to you.


Dave

1) A new Dilgar ship doesn't have to be playable in the timeline. Why not just omit an in service date and say "This ship was unfinished before the Dilgar were wiped out. It can't be used in Campaigns or games within a set timeline, but here it is for free-play and tounaments

2) Why wait so that any balance issues that arise may need a second fix. It makes more sense to put out Drakh/Dilgar Arma level ships now so that they can be sorted with the rest of the fleet instead of having to do a second fix to them to get it right.

And as to the Rbax Dilgar stuff, yes it's fine. Rich does a great job on all the stuff he does, but that's beside the point. The issue at heart here is Mongoose's refusal to support the ENTIRE community, not just a majority.
We love this game as much as the next acta fan. So is it any surprise that we speak out in anger at being left out in the cold with regards Armageddon?



Also, still nobody has given me an answer as to why there's so much hostility towards the Drakh and Dilgar getting a look in in Armageddon. It certainly wouldn't hurt anybody if these things had been included, and sure as hell would have hurt a lot less for those of us who feel shunned for having the audacity to play and support new races to the game!

 

[WickedE]

Yikes. Anyone consider the fact the Dilgar and Drakh REALLY don't NEED anything at Armageddon level? At least, not immediately?
Consider for a moment, that 1 Armageddon Point will get you Two Motherships, which means..oh...what was it...six....eight skirmish ships per Mother ship? That's Two War Level Carriers and Sixteen Skirmish ships. Admittedly the Mothership isn't much of a brawler, but when its packing Twelve to Sixteen other ships, that'll pose a problem to anyone REALLY fast.

And as far as the Dilgar, they work better with a LOT of ships rather than one big one amidst a fleet. For One Armageddon Point I can get 12 Omelos or Ochlavita. That's Two Pentacons right there, and I guarentee you that the Nemesis will NOT get a Boresight anytime soon, which means you have the potential to close in with Torpedoes or Boresight at 20inches, And the Only thing the Nemesis will do is fire Missiles at one ship per turn until you get within 12 inches.
Or hell, Let's say 1 Armageddon point, That equals Six Raid Ships? Boom. Six Targraths right there, one Pentacon? That Nemesis STILL won't get its boresight, and I promise once those Targrath Close, and they will close range quick to take a LITTLE damage with the Missiles(You won't be able to kill them all), they're going to overwhelm those interceptors and shred the bastard with Bolter and Pulsar fire, even with Interceptors.

But, If you're so insistent on getting Armageddon ships for two races that, to me, seem to work moreso with numbers than individual ships, Make one.
Make one, test it out, if it's balanced? Submit it to Signs and Porents or Mongoose in general. I CHALLENGE someone here to create an article for Signs and Portents for giving the Dilgar and Drakh Armageddon level ships that are balanced and work well. Add in a few scenario's! Some fluff! A What If situation for the Dilgar, and for the Drakh? The Unveiling of a New ship to strike back against the vengeful EA.

Bottom line? Things are as they are. You can do some complaining, which is perfectly all right, or you can get together with similar people who share your concern, and try to rectify it.

 

[Voronesh]

No more, mention of Dilgar being correctly represented in ACTA.

SNJ no Dilgar would go up to Mishakurs, but a Mish would be at Raid lvl that it. Maybe battle at most, but very unlikely.

Having Psychopaths at the helm isnt a good thing no, but the Minbari werent much better.

And at least the DIlgar were really used to war, whereas the Minbari didnt know crap about tactis except a few good books. Having the most advanced warfleet in the galaxy (except first ones) does not promote new tactics.

Get something new, not after 3 months no (projected back then) heck no. Bascally MGP would have had to hold something back.
Consider this, no you did not play with Carriers and motherships for the last months, cause they would be just coming out for Armageddon. Your eally would prefer that????