Vincent791
Mongoose
I don't know if that's true, but maybe it's what I was hoping to hear. I'm too worried about magic and I need to take it lightly or maybe reserve sorcery for a future adventure, when I have more idea of the game I'm playing.
Any of you have modified the rules?
- Thread starter Vincent791
- Start date
I don't know if that's true, but maybe it's what I was hoping to hear. I'm too worried about magic and I need to take it lightly or maybe reserve sorcery for a future adventure, when I have more idea of the game I'm playing.
Vincent791: I'm not the GM of our Conan group, but if I were I'd probably use the RAW like Trodax, VincentDarlage and Zeus, simply because I like consistency. Still, there are several aspects of the magic system that doesn't reward approaching magic the way I'd like to. One of these is the Defensive Blast mentioned by several others, and I advise you to familiarize yourself with it. The impact of this ability is tremendous.
VincentDarlage: I agree with many of your points. I love how the lack of utility spells has made skills actually useful in Conan. I can even build a 120,000 sp castle now without fear that one lousy beholder with disintegrate will reduce it to rubble in mere minutes
. And I'm glad to see alignment gone, as well.
I disagree that all half-breed templates should give Corruption, even if they are less human, unless you're talking about demonic half-breeds only. Because the consequences of Corruption are possible insanity and eventually becoming evil, physically changing into a monster, and demonic "servitude", I don't think Corruption is an appropriate method to measure the inhumanity of non-demonic half-breeds.
The prejudice against a half-elf (example only, I would never use such a thing in Conan), half-elemental, or half-Yaggite should prevent it from associating with most humans, if it has visible features. Of course, this could eventually make such a being bitter and resentful towards humanity, but I believe this should be handled with roleplaying. I don't think a half-Yaggite should be born "evil" (3+ Corruption), prone to insanity, and closer to physical warping (other than elephant features it may have been born with) and demonic "servitude" than an ordinary human.
Not knowing all the details of this battle, I may well be jumping to conclusions here. But if you cast Ill-Fortune to reduce your scholar's PPs, it sounds to me you already think Defensive Blast might be a problem. Casting the terribly weak Ill-Fortune and later following with a 5d6 DB is a poor tactical decision in most cases. Those 4 PPs would likely be much better spent on a 9d6 DB, which could well have brought a couple of players to -10 through massive damage.urdinaran said:
VincentDarlage: I agree with many of your points. I love how the lack of utility spells has made skills actually useful in Conan. I can even build a 120,000 sp castle now without fear that one lousy beholder with disintegrate will reduce it to rubble in mere minutes
. And I'm glad to see alignment gone, as well.I disagree that all half-breed templates should give Corruption, even if they are less human, unless you're talking about demonic half-breeds only. Because the consequences of Corruption are possible insanity and eventually becoming evil, physically changing into a monster, and demonic "servitude", I don't think Corruption is an appropriate method to measure the inhumanity of non-demonic half-breeds.
The prejudice against a half-elf (example only, I would never use such a thing in Conan), half-elemental, or half-Yaggite should prevent it from associating with most humans, if it has visible features. Of course, this could eventually make such a being bitter and resentful towards humanity, but I believe this should be handled with roleplaying. I don't think a half-Yaggite should be born "evil" (3+ Corruption), prone to insanity, and closer to physical warping (other than elephant features it may have been born with) and demonic "servitude" than an ordinary human.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Turim said:
Well, my argument there would be that Howard really didn't include angelic half-breeds in his writing, so I wouldn't include one in the game, either. Basically anything from the outer void mating with man or woman is probably going to be a rather unholy affair... I doubt a Yaggite could mate with a mortal girl without some sort of black magic going on- and they did know black magic. The same with the elemental. If it isn't natural, then it is unnatural and corrupted - or at the very least, prone to corruption.
Turim said:
So, tell me, how would you like to approach magic? Can I infer from this quote that you would prefer that Defensive Blast was not a part of the RAW?
And what about the ability to drain PP from living creatures? Should it have been left out of the RAW since it is so much better than gaining PP through rituals or lotus?
- thulsa
Sutek
Mongoose
Don't say "better", Thulsa. I'd say that sucking PP out of people falls quite neatly under the category of "sorcerous practices" as mentioned on pg189 and warrant a corruption save every time. Therefore, it's an easier path, but that's the way to the Dark Side. (sorry, just re-watched EpIII on DVD so I'm extra-steeped in Star Wars-isms at the moment - lol). Id even call for a Corruption Save were a sorcerer to atempt a Defensive Blast, the intent of which is to dish out as much destruction as possible and so, therefore, and indication of quite a nasty disposition and low view of others that may fall into the blast's target area. It's indescriminate harm, and that is a darker approach than calculated harm in some ways.
As far as "not using magic as a crutch", I sort of agree with Vincent Darlage on that one, but I'll also say that Gelid Bones is a hard core spell and far more deadly thatn any Magic Missile I've ever seen. It costs 1PP and takes only a single action to pull off. As the sorcerer gains Levels, the spell gets harder and harder to save against, but even a Lvl 1 Scholar has a chance at rolling a 20, maing it darn near impossible for others of his same level to save against. Yes, it requires the sorcerer to know two schools, but still...
What you'll find with sorcerers and magic in general is that they won't get scary-good until mid levels (10-12) and then it's down right frightening. It's almost as if there's a real learning curve to deadly sorcery, but once a scholar has rounded that corner, there's no stopping him. Also, cleverness is the way to go with Conan magic since the spells require planning in order to progress as well as cast. In other words, a scholar really ahs to plan out what spells and schools he wants to take and when, very much like feats. In this regard, sorcerers even out with other classes much better than in D&D, wich is another thing Vincent D would agree with, I'd imagine.
I'd also say this (and Raven hates it): Read Raven's stuff with an open mind, but realize that much of it is very, very powerful. In my opinion, it's over powered in many places and that's just not necessary as far as I'm concerned. Between the main rule book and Skrolls of Skelos, you should be ablt to generate a really formidible sorcerer without too much trouble, but also make it a challenging character to play. Believe me, you don't want to end up making things too easy for this class.
I'd also point out that no-sorcerer Scholars are far from useless. Multi-class with noble, thief or borderer, or simply pick the right feats and skills and these people can be a neat guy to have around. Frees the brutes from having to read and ask questions (lol), and they can still handle a sword pretty well if the stats are right, particulary the scholar/noble or scholar/thief.
As far as "not using magic as a crutch", I sort of agree with Vincent Darlage on that one, but I'll also say that Gelid Bones is a hard core spell and far more deadly thatn any Magic Missile I've ever seen. It costs 1PP and takes only a single action to pull off. As the sorcerer gains Levels, the spell gets harder and harder to save against, but even a Lvl 1 Scholar has a chance at rolling a 20, maing it darn near impossible for others of his same level to save against. Yes, it requires the sorcerer to know two schools, but still...
What you'll find with sorcerers and magic in general is that they won't get scary-good until mid levels (10-12) and then it's down right frightening. It's almost as if there's a real learning curve to deadly sorcery, but once a scholar has rounded that corner, there's no stopping him. Also, cleverness is the way to go with Conan magic since the spells require planning in order to progress as well as cast. In other words, a scholar really ahs to plan out what spells and schools he wants to take and when, very much like feats. In this regard, sorcerers even out with other classes much better than in D&D, wich is another thing Vincent D would agree with, I'd imagine.
I'd also say this (and Raven hates it): Read Raven's stuff with an open mind, but realize that much of it is very, very powerful. In my opinion, it's over powered in many places and that's just not necessary as far as I'm concerned. Between the main rule book and Skrolls of Skelos, you should be ablt to generate a really formidible sorcerer without too much trouble, but also make it a challenging character to play. Believe me, you don't want to end up making things too easy for this class.
I'd also point out that no-sorcerer Scholars are far from useless. Multi-class with noble, thief or borderer, or simply pick the right feats and skills and these people can be a neat guy to have around. Frees the brutes from having to read and ask questions (lol), and they can still handle a sword pretty well if the stats are right, particulary the scholar/noble or scholar/thief.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Well said, Sutek!
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
I'll admit that my game is becoming less hard core Conan and more like Mongoose Fantasy Roleplaying- but I was never a hard core REH fan to begin with. I like a freer style of play and if it comes between what REH, a pastiche writer or what Vincent wrote and what fits the story better I am always going to take the last option. I use the rules skeleton Mongoose provides but I always like to 'improve' things as I go. Your Milage May Vary.
Sutek
Mongoose
Yeah, see Raven knows by now that I donm't like her stuff 100%, but I do like some of it and, moreover, respect her desire to mold the world in a way that suits her style.
The really brilliant thing is that D&D isn't really very capable of that because it operates on much more of and algorithmic engine than Conan has been "down-written" for. Now that may sound like mumbo jumbo, but essentially what I mean is that COnan:RPG has come accross to me as a much more pliable framework for fantasy RPG than 3.5 D&D is now. Player characters can do more, there's no linear threat or success level to tasks or encounters and there's no defined means of progression and advancement. The emphasis is on storytelling, and that's what the fantasy RPG is really supposed to be about; Conan gets back to that.
D&D, particularly 3.5, is so formulaic that players eventually know to expect a certain degree of predictability - it's designed that way. 4 PCs of equal level need 4 x XP to all go up a level. APPROPRIATE CR = PC PARTY LVL divided by PC PARTY POPULATION. That sort of linear predictability takes all the random unexpected nature of fantsy right oiut of the mix - very dull if you ask me. My own inclination is to use just the books and generate human threat NPC that can act as recurring villains and allies. Man-apes and Saber-tooth cats and Risen Dead are plenty supernatural for me - I don't require much more. Overall, the basic flavor of a true REH Conan pastiche, In my estimation, is a strugle of humans trying to dominate via willfully exploiting the arcane and ultimately having that attempt backfire, usually through acts of the hero(s). It's epic, heroic storytelling for me as a GM, and my players are the main characters in my story. Raven clearly has a more metaphysical inclination and likes to explore more on the magic and spritual side of the RPG parabola, if you will.
My greatest reccomendation is that if you want to augment anything, make sure you fully understand the way it ought to work first. If you start off by assuming that there are problems with the rules, inconsistancies in the mechanics or general issues with the game presumptively, I think you're makiing a huge mistake. Conan is one of the absolutely tightest RPGs mechanics wise that I've ever picked up. Mongoose really learned from all the mistakes made on D&D the past decade or so and have also managed to really translate the RHE world well on top of it.
Despite the typos and screwiness between the original edition and AE...(lol)
The really brilliant thing is that D&D isn't really very capable of that because it operates on much more of and algorithmic engine than Conan has been "down-written" for. Now that may sound like mumbo jumbo, but essentially what I mean is that COnan:RPG has come accross to me as a much more pliable framework for fantasy RPG than 3.5 D&D is now. Player characters can do more, there's no linear threat or success level to tasks or encounters and there's no defined means of progression and advancement. The emphasis is on storytelling, and that's what the fantasy RPG is really supposed to be about; Conan gets back to that.
D&D, particularly 3.5, is so formulaic that players eventually know to expect a certain degree of predictability - it's designed that way. 4 PCs of equal level need 4 x XP to all go up a level. APPROPRIATE CR = PC PARTY LVL divided by PC PARTY POPULATION. That sort of linear predictability takes all the random unexpected nature of fantsy right oiut of the mix - very dull if you ask me. My own inclination is to use just the books and generate human threat NPC that can act as recurring villains and allies. Man-apes and Saber-tooth cats and Risen Dead are plenty supernatural for me - I don't require much more. Overall, the basic flavor of a true REH Conan pastiche, In my estimation, is a strugle of humans trying to dominate via willfully exploiting the arcane and ultimately having that attempt backfire, usually through acts of the hero(s). It's epic, heroic storytelling for me as a GM, and my players are the main characters in my story. Raven clearly has a more metaphysical inclination and likes to explore more on the magic and spritual side of the RPG parabola, if you will.
My greatest reccomendation is that if you want to augment anything, make sure you fully understand the way it ought to work first. If you start off by assuming that there are problems with the rules, inconsistancies in the mechanics or general issues with the game presumptively, I think you're makiing a huge mistake. Conan is one of the absolutely tightest RPGs mechanics wise that I've ever picked up. Mongoose really learned from all the mistakes made on D&D the past decade or so and have also managed to really translate the RHE world well on top of it.
Despite the typos and screwiness between the original edition and AE...(lol)
Sutek said:
Yeah, maybe you're right about the Corruption saves. It would help if that was explicitly stated under the rules for draining PP from helpless people, though.
Turim's argument (he plays a Scholar in my group) is that "they [the victims] suffer no permanent harm, they get their lost Wisdom points back after a few hours anyway" (and so shouldn't cause Corruption). While the point about "no permanent harm" is true from a purely technical point of view, my interpretation is that the draining of PP represents a draining of life-force from the victim, and this is simply a Bad Thing do do. Perhaps it causes some kind of psychological wound in the victim (but why then is not the Wisdom damage permanent?).
With the rules as written, it's much better to have half a dozen slaves (which you can buy for 3 sp apiece in Turan...) chained in your basement and drain them regularly for PP, than it is to use black lotus powder (300 sp/dose) or engage in Power Rituals (which require several hours and dozens of participants and skilll ranks to be as effective).
Perhaps Vincent D., as our resident semi-official "voice of authority", could explain his view of this. What "sorcerous practices" should, in your opinion, cause Corruption saves?
- thulsa
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
thulsa said:
I am going to take the cop-out answer here: Anything the GM says should cause it is enough to cause it, however the RAW answer (copied from Turim, from the rule books) is:
Turim said:
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Sutek said:
Ah, soul rape. I'd wondered when we'd get to it. As an RL rape survivor let me put this in context- you are putting a person into a helpless state and then violating them for your benefit. I'd say that's a Corruption save every time regardless of the culture involved. Some things are always wrong no matter what motive the one doing it has.
Sutek
Mongoose
Er,...rape has absolutely nothing to do with it. This is draining actual life essence that I'm talking about. A target doesn't even need to be helpless, at least any moreso than the standard grunt with a blade. You can drain as a result of keeping a target immobilised at a rate of 1d4 per round, but you can get more from a coup de grace.
Why you always gotta turn a discussion to your vaguely tangential personal experience?
I gota say this, if you dont'have the Atlantean Edition, then the description of what Corruption is in relation to the Conan world is pretty vague. In the AE, Corruption is defined as being essentially "amoral", meaning that morality is irrelevant in your world view. It's not really a question of being "evil" per-se, but come on - sucking life right outta some dude is friggin harsh, I don't care what universe you're from.
Heck, even encountering a corrupt sorcerer can invoke a Corruption Save, so why does it seem less explicitly defined to people that litterally draining a person's life esence away is ...um...not corrupting? As out of place as Raven's comment is, in my opinion (rape has nothing to do with the discussion) her point is spot on.
However, what differentiates a PP drain from simply stabbing a downed foe through the neck, or cracking his skull with a board or something? I mean, the Conan world is defined as being "essentially bleak" as far as morality goes.
It's because the PCs are meant to be inherently good and killing is bad and violence against people is wrong.
lol
It seems like this wouldn't be some that needs to be reiterated, but I guess public schools being waht they are and all...
Why you always gotta turn a discussion to your vaguely tangential personal experience?
I gota say this, if you dont'have the Atlantean Edition, then the description of what Corruption is in relation to the Conan world is pretty vague. In the AE, Corruption is defined as being essentially "amoral", meaning that morality is irrelevant in your world view. It's not really a question of being "evil" per-se, but come on - sucking life right outta some dude is friggin harsh, I don't care what universe you're from.
Heck, even encountering a corrupt sorcerer can invoke a Corruption Save, so why does it seem less explicitly defined to people that litterally draining a person's life esence away is ...um...not corrupting? As out of place as Raven's comment is, in my opinion (rape has nothing to do with the discussion) her point is spot on.
However, what differentiates a PP drain from simply stabbing a downed foe through the neck, or cracking his skull with a board or something? I mean, the Conan world is defined as being "essentially bleak" as far as morality goes.
It's because the PCs are meant to be inherently good and killing is bad and violence against people is wrong.
lol
It seems like this wouldn't be some that needs to be reiterated, but I guess public schools being waht they are and all...
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Raven Blackwell said:
You could say that about a lot of things, including hitting someone with a sword, casting all sorts of spells, etc. By that definition, even some hypnotism and mind-reading spells qualify. Shoot, tying someone up and stealing his stuff in the game qualifies for that!
Regardless, can we leave your RL experiences out of this? Please?
Despite your RL experiences, which are irrelevant to the topic, only certain things listed in the book cause Corruption. Rape, mental or otherwise, is not on that list.
Turim wrote:
"Not knowing all the details of this battle, I may well be jumping to conclusions here. But if you cast Ill-Fortune to reduce your scholar's PPs, it sounds to me you already think Defensive Blast might be a problem. Casting the terribly weak Ill-Fortune and later following with a 5d6 DB is a poor tactical decision in most cases. Those 4 PPs would likely be much better spent on a 9d6 DB, which could well have brought a couple of players to -10 through massive damage."
My players and I have an understanding: I won't "Munchkinize" the game as long as they don't. Sorcerers are supposed to cast spells and look menacing, not wait around for the maximum number of opponents to get within 10' of them, so they can maximize their damage output with all their available Power Points. I don't feel that it would be in the spirit of the game to do that. Also, by doing that, I am acting as the players' enemy, not an impartial referee.
As an aside: that 5d6 blast took a PC to -3 HP.
"Not knowing all the details of this battle, I may well be jumping to conclusions here. But if you cast Ill-Fortune to reduce your scholar's PPs, it sounds to me you already think Defensive Blast might be a problem. Casting the terribly weak Ill-Fortune and later following with a 5d6 DB is a poor tactical decision in most cases. Those 4 PPs would likely be much better spent on a 9d6 DB, which could well have brought a couple of players to -10 through massive damage."
My players and I have an understanding: I won't "Munchkinize" the game as long as they don't. Sorcerers are supposed to cast spells and look menacing, not wait around for the maximum number of opponents to get within 10' of them, so they can maximize their damage output with all their available Power Points. I don't feel that it would be in the spirit of the game to do that. Also, by doing that, I am acting as the players' enemy, not an impartial referee.
As an aside: that 5d6 blast took a PC to -3 HP.
Personally I find that the idea of declaring anything not pureblooded human as corrupt shows more corruption in the person saying it than in the being in question. The problem with saying someone with elemental blood is corrupt is that you are redefining corruption as a solely human quality.
Corruption is the slipping away from your natural state. Since most PCs are humans, that means your human qualities. If a human burns a random town down for pleasure, it's probably a corrupt act. If a fire elemental does the same act, it's not corrupt, it's part of the natural order. For an elemental to be corrupt it has to act against its nature, i.e. start seeking out worshipers and working towards gaining power on the mortal planes. If someone has elemental blood they're no more corrupt than any other being (no playing sins of the father here, if you do you're going to find that EVERYONE should be corrupt because at some point they have violated their ancestor's "natural" way of doing things).
If you want to assign corruption to someone for mating with an elemental or a demon or even an angel because it goes against the natural order of things, fine, but when you start claiming that by nature any crossbreed is corrupt you've changed the entire definition of what it is to be corrupt. By your definition all non-humans are corrupt because they are alien to the natural mindset of humans, regardless of whether or not they occupy a role in the rest of the natural order.
A better way to define corruption is to say that "Corruption is the distancing of oneself from ones own place in the natural order of reality." Drawing the life essence from someone else to power your magic isn't corrupt because you are taking power from someone just like feeding. Draining power points you don't NEED is corrupt because you aren't taking a role of predator any more. If you feed/sacrafice from others only as you need then you aren't risking corruption. If you are simply feeding without needing the points then you risk corruption from gluttony. Within the natural order there are predators and there are prey, life and death, etc. Assigning morality to that cycle is non-sensical and I see corruption as the breaking down of that cycle for personal gain (either through the advancement of self or the destruction of others.) This means that adventurers aren't corrupt by nature, but people who simply kill for pleasure are.
Corruption is the slipping away from your natural state. Since most PCs are humans, that means your human qualities. If a human burns a random town down for pleasure, it's probably a corrupt act. If a fire elemental does the same act, it's not corrupt, it's part of the natural order. For an elemental to be corrupt it has to act against its nature, i.e. start seeking out worshipers and working towards gaining power on the mortal planes. If someone has elemental blood they're no more corrupt than any other being (no playing sins of the father here, if you do you're going to find that EVERYONE should be corrupt because at some point they have violated their ancestor's "natural" way of doing things).
If you want to assign corruption to someone for mating with an elemental or a demon or even an angel because it goes against the natural order of things, fine, but when you start claiming that by nature any crossbreed is corrupt you've changed the entire definition of what it is to be corrupt. By your definition all non-humans are corrupt because they are alien to the natural mindset of humans, regardless of whether or not they occupy a role in the rest of the natural order.
A better way to define corruption is to say that "Corruption is the distancing of oneself from ones own place in the natural order of reality." Drawing the life essence from someone else to power your magic isn't corrupt because you are taking power from someone just like feeding. Draining power points you don't NEED is corrupt because you aren't taking a role of predator any more. If you feed/sacrafice from others only as you need then you aren't risking corruption. If you are simply feeding without needing the points then you risk corruption from gluttony. Within the natural order there are predators and there are prey, life and death, etc. Assigning morality to that cycle is non-sensical and I see corruption as the breaking down of that cycle for personal gain (either through the advancement of self or the destruction of others.) This means that adventurers aren't corrupt by nature, but people who simply kill for pleasure are.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Your definition of corruption, by the way, actually leaves little room for Corruption as a rule. It implies that vampires, werewolves, demons, demon lords and such are not inherently corrupt and alien to humanity because they are only acting according to their nature.
I am not saying I am right about my earlier comment on half-breeds - until I wrote that I can't say I really thought about it a lot, and Turim made an iron-clad argument against it.
I am not saying I am right about my earlier comment on half-breeds - until I wrote that I can't say I really thought about it a lot, and Turim made an iron-clad argument against it.
Actually, sorry, that wasn't meant to be a personal attack. It was meant to me a commentary on the humanocentric values that it shows. From the perspective of anything else corruption can mean many different things. I personally just see that the corruption that humanity takes from alien entities is a result of humans emulating those entities. Those entities aren't corrupt in and of themselves, instead they are corrupt in that they cause humans to mimic them.
I see the idea that humans are the only non-corrupt entities is a sign of a very limited viewpoint, one that seems to me to be more corrupt than the recognition that corruption is when things are out of order in nature.
Your example of vampires and werewolves is actually a good example of corruption: both vampires and werewolves were once human and have been unnaturally altered out of their place. A demon who twists mortals for power is corrupt because it is breaking the natural order. That's how I see corruption: some thigns are inherently corrupt because they break the natural order.
I see the idea that humans are the only non-corrupt entities is a sign of a very limited viewpoint, one that seems to me to be more corrupt than the recognition that corruption is when things are out of order in nature.
Your example of vampires and werewolves is actually a good example of corruption: both vampires and werewolves were once human and have been unnaturally altered out of their place. A demon who twists mortals for power is corrupt because it is breaking the natural order. That's how I see corruption: some thigns are inherently corrupt because they break the natural order.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
What I should have said is that Corruption in a human is a measure of that human's growing inhumanity due to contact with demonic influences.
Conan is a humanocentric game, though, which is one of the best things about it. No elves, no dwarves, no half-elementals.
Conan is a humanocentric game, though, which is one of the best things about it. No elves, no dwarves, no half-elementals.
That I can wholeheartedly agree with. My PC is a Childe of Elements who's working on becoming a Fire Elemental. Neither I nor my GM sees that as Corrupt, instead we see it as someone choosing between one of two possible "paths" nature allows for such a person. They have the option of either ignoring their outsider blood or embracing it, but whichever choice they make determines what is corrupt for them; thus my character isn't considered corrupt for setting random fires and burning people alive, but risks corruption checks if she tries to be something other than either an elemental or a human (and I've picked elemental obviously.)
Thulsa: Ask, and ye shall recieve. I will of course try to go by the RAW, and none of this is meant as a suggestion for a houserule, as you know I hate houserules . This is simply me speculating how I might have done it if I owned Mongoose and intended to release Conan The Even More Atlantean Edition, or a downloadable PDF with new rules. The long list of bugs and contradictions still in the AE would certainly make at least a PDF a priority for me.
I'm not sure exactly what I would do with Defensive Blast, but if I removed or weakened it I would also strengthen many of the combat spells as compensation. Simply removing DB or strictly limiting it, as many have suggested on these boards, will gimp the sorcerer in combat until mid-levels. Even at high levels the sorcerer will suffer from the lack of DB, especially if he doesn't have good combat styles. One reasonably important aspect of DB is that it "always" works. You can use it while unable to speak or in a grapple, and it will burn aberrations and demons that the warriors may not be able to touch. Conan has no Still Spell and no effective Verbal only spells that I'm aware of (the various Ill-Fortune spells and Summon Elemental, Air doesn't really count). Without DB a scholar would be almost powerless in a grapple with a good grappler, except that a grapple check or an Escape Artist check will give him perhaps a 5% chance to escape. Even if he manages to escape he won't have a standard action left to cast a spell, and will likely end up in the same predicament next round. A spell cast as a free action with the Adept feat could help if he escapes once, though.
I don't think Energy Drain is all that bad, except for the annoying detail that it technically works on tiny creatures like mice. This possible use of ED encourages lame campaign-flavour where sorcerers travel with cages filled with mice that they use as rechargeable batteries. Sacrificing common people ritually (with or without the Ritual Sacrifice feat) does suck compared to other methods of gaining PPs (some of which I mentioned here), especially if the sorcerer doesn't have Bleed Dry (SoS feat). This is because the PPs gained are based on the victim's HPs, which peasant maidens have very few of. You could sacrifice large and cheap animals, but this doesn't have the same diabolical feel for many people. And subduing strong warriors is just too much of a hassle most of the time. I think powerful "ritual" spells should be expensive to cast, perhaps with stronger effects based on PPs spent (the Summon Essence spell from Hyboria's Finest is an excellent example of such a spell), thus tempting lesser sorcerers (and maybe even very powerful ones) to resort to sacrificial rituals. I can see ritual sacrifice being used once in a while by a sorcerer desperate for PPs but I don't think it needs to be an integral part of "lesser" spellcasting. Ritually sacrificing 6 virgin girls to cast a simple Warrior Trance feels lame more than anything else. In any event, I don't think PPs gained from ritual sacrifice should be based on HPs, but rather use a table that possibly includes sentience, size, hit dice, virginity, gender, age, feats and so on. A table like this would solve a lot of problems. It would make virgin girls more desirable than cows as sacrifices, which works well with the tone of Conan. Combined with the extra expensive ritual spells and a clarification on the rule that allows PPs gained from sacrifices to be used directly in a spell it would make ritual sacrifice vastly preferable to Greater Meditation and the acolyte channel in "ritual" spells, while still making Greater Meditation and the like more frequent with "lesser" spells. Applied to Opportunistic Sacrifice it would also weaken the awesome Defensive Blast chain reaction. Finally, it could be written to limit the use of Energy Drain to the same creatures ritual sacrifice would work on, in other words small or perhaps medium creatures and bigger. That leaves us with Black Lotus Powder. If you want to see this used more often by PCs it needs to be more cost-effective, but this is a problem it has in common with most alchemical items.
I've seen people on these boards promote the use of alchemical items, and the (pastiche) Conan Magazines I've read support this in some cases. While not a problem for NPCs as they can have whatever they want, regardless of price, the prices on most of these items need to be marked down if they are to be a real option compared with Defensive Blast and the best combat spells. If not, I don't think they will see much use by PC sorcerers, unless found on enemies, as the disadvantages are too restrictive. A scholar who has +15 Craft (alchemy) and who takes 10 can make 1 Blue Devil's-Flame in 3 weeks at the cost of 100 sp. But it requires a base where he can work undisturbed and an expensive lab (500+ sp). And this is maybe the most cost-effective alchemical item. The same scholar would have to spend 5 weeks and 166 sp for a single Kothic Demon-Fire (assuming take 10), which is roughly as strong as a single swing from the bardiche-wielding barbarian. It's no fun wasting 5 weeks and 166 sp only to roll a 3 when you throw the thing.
Another thing I would have welcomed if handled well is the "searching for ancient spellbooks" thing. From what I've seen there are basically two kinds of tomes. The first is the kind that gives certain benefits depending on your Decipher Script check. I haven't read most of these, but I have seen some, and the ones I've seen honestly doesn't seem worth braving entities from the Outer Dark for. The second is the D&D-style spellbook with several normal spells that can be learned more easily. This kind of tome isn't very attractive either, as a sorcerer already has plenty of options when choosing his spells. The Independent is perhaps the best, but by choosing a master/demon/religion carefully the other backgrounds can also control their spell lists to some extent. Enterprising GM's may already have houseruled this, but I doubt all of them have done it without significantly detracting from the enjoyment of playing a sorcerer. The problem with such a houserule from a PC's point of view is that Conan sorcerers have a fixed spell progression, and if a good spell isn't available (and there's a fair chance it won't be at low levels) you may be forced to accept a "junk" spell or 2 skill points. I would like the Conan sorcerer to be based on the D&D wizard, instead of the D&D sorcerer. That way GM's would have the option of withholding spells for later levels without wrecking the PC sorcerer. Another benefit would be that sorcerers of similar levels could know very different quantities of spells, depending on age, connections, and inclination to go hunting for tomes. This would also fix the strange situation that legendary 20th-level sorcerers find themselves in under the RAW where they are totally unable to learn even the simplest new spells from the lowest of acolytes.
After all these complaints I'd like to add that Ian Sturrock also got many things right in Conan, but listing them here as well would make this already large post monstrously so.
Sutek: I haven't seen anything in AE or SoS suggesting that Energy Drain or Defensive Blast should call for a Corruption save. I believe if this was the intention it would have been stated in the relevant sections. I think the mention of "sorcerous practices" refers to spells/rituals like Demonic Pact. I haven't read most of the creature sections, nor the magic items in SoS, so there may be something supporting your claim there.
I agree that Gelid Bones is useful, but I don't think it's necessarily a great choice for a sorcerer. This spell should primarily be useful at levels 4-7, before Dread Serpent and later Death Touch become available. If you take both Curses and Oriental Magic at levels 1,2, or 4, you had better find a third style with lots of good low-level spells. If not you'll be forced to spend several of your 6 (assuming 14 Int at level 7) precious spell slots on the many "junk" low-level spells in these styles, or even 2 skill points.
My sorcerer became "scary-good" upon reaching 6th level, which Thulsa will probably attest to, when I chose the Opportunistic Sacrifice feat and used it with Defensive Blast. Of course, he was still extremely vulnerable to attacks, but these two combined allowed me to obliterate several powerful melee enemies that could easily have wiped out our strong warriors. Any sorcerer who chooses Ritual Sacrifice and then Opportunistic Sacrifice at 6th level will be very dangerous offensively, as long as he puts some thought into using DB effectively.
PrettyMuchEveryoneWhoHasSpokenAboutCorruption: I find myself disagreeing with everyone here when it comes to Corruption. I've listed all instances of Corruption saves that I'm aware of in books by Ian Sturrock here. They all have a common theme: Certain kinds of contact with demons or objects tainted by demons. Several of these saves stem from situations where the Corruption victim didn't necessarily do anything evil. This combined with no formula for DCs and several sections in the books describing arguably very evil actions (Ritual Sacrifice, Opportunistic Sacrifice, Tortured Sacrifice, Energy Drain, slavery, crafting aberrations and new life, casting spells like Summon Demon and Black Plague and so on) without any mention of Corruption saves makes me conclude that evil does not make you Corrupt, even though Corruption makes you evil. We also have to consider the campaign consequences of the evil causes Corruption view. Hyboria is replete with evil people, and the Will saves of most people are bound to be low. It certainly doesn't help that the DC increases with the current amount of Corruption. The bottom line is that anyone who leads a lifestyle that regularly includes the evil acts the rest of you would call for a Corruption save for, will eventually turn into a mutant. Depending on that person's lifestyle and the evil "bar" the individual GM sets this could happen very fast. Do you really want "common" torturers, rapists, slavers, pedophiles, murderers and so on to metamorphose into mutants? Since all of you seem to disagree with me on this one, I'd like you to know if you consider your view an interpretation of the RAW or a houserule.
I'll sum up my opinion on Corruption for anyone still reading. Corruption is demonic taint. Roughly speaking, "close" contact with demons or objects tainted by them is the only source of Corruption. Evil acts, no matter how vile or far-reaching, never cause Corruption unless they also include "close" contact. The use of magic, no matter how frequent or powerful, never causes Corruption unless it also includes "close" contact.
And if this post doesn't earn me a spot in the Rant Hall of Fame, I don't know what will.
. This is simply me speculating how I might have done it if I owned Mongoose and intended to release Conan The Even More Atlantean Edition, or a downloadable PDF with new rules. The long list of bugs and contradictions still in the AE would certainly make at least a PDF a priority for me.I'm not sure exactly what I would do with Defensive Blast, but if I removed or weakened it I would also strengthen many of the combat spells as compensation. Simply removing DB or strictly limiting it, as many have suggested on these boards, will gimp the sorcerer in combat until mid-levels. Even at high levels the sorcerer will suffer from the lack of DB, especially if he doesn't have good combat styles. One reasonably important aspect of DB is that it "always" works. You can use it while unable to speak or in a grapple, and it will burn aberrations and demons that the warriors may not be able to touch. Conan has no Still Spell and no effective Verbal only spells that I'm aware of (the various Ill-Fortune spells and Summon Elemental, Air doesn't really count). Without DB a scholar would be almost powerless in a grapple with a good grappler, except that a grapple check or an Escape Artist check will give him perhaps a 5% chance to escape. Even if he manages to escape he won't have a standard action left to cast a spell, and will likely end up in the same predicament next round. A spell cast as a free action with the Adept feat could help if he escapes once, though.
I don't think Energy Drain is all that bad, except for the annoying detail that it technically works on tiny creatures like mice. This possible use of ED encourages lame campaign-flavour where sorcerers travel with cages filled with mice that they use as rechargeable batteries. Sacrificing common people ritually (with or without the Ritual Sacrifice feat) does suck compared to other methods of gaining PPs (some of which I mentioned here), especially if the sorcerer doesn't have Bleed Dry (SoS feat). This is because the PPs gained are based on the victim's HPs, which peasant maidens have very few of. You could sacrifice large and cheap animals, but this doesn't have the same diabolical feel for many people. And subduing strong warriors is just too much of a hassle most of the time. I think powerful "ritual" spells should be expensive to cast, perhaps with stronger effects based on PPs spent (the Summon Essence spell from Hyboria's Finest is an excellent example of such a spell), thus tempting lesser sorcerers (and maybe even very powerful ones) to resort to sacrificial rituals. I can see ritual sacrifice being used once in a while by a sorcerer desperate for PPs but I don't think it needs to be an integral part of "lesser" spellcasting. Ritually sacrificing 6 virgin girls to cast a simple Warrior Trance feels lame more than anything else. In any event, I don't think PPs gained from ritual sacrifice should be based on HPs, but rather use a table that possibly includes sentience, size, hit dice, virginity, gender, age, feats and so on. A table like this would solve a lot of problems. It would make virgin girls more desirable than cows as sacrifices, which works well with the tone of Conan. Combined with the extra expensive ritual spells and a clarification on the rule that allows PPs gained from sacrifices to be used directly in a spell it would make ritual sacrifice vastly preferable to Greater Meditation and the acolyte channel in "ritual" spells, while still making Greater Meditation and the like more frequent with "lesser" spells. Applied to Opportunistic Sacrifice it would also weaken the awesome Defensive Blast chain reaction. Finally, it could be written to limit the use of Energy Drain to the same creatures ritual sacrifice would work on, in other words small or perhaps medium creatures and bigger. That leaves us with Black Lotus Powder. If you want to see this used more often by PCs it needs to be more cost-effective, but this is a problem it has in common with most alchemical items.
I've seen people on these boards promote the use of alchemical items, and the (pastiche) Conan Magazines I've read support this in some cases. While not a problem for NPCs as they can have whatever they want, regardless of price, the prices on most of these items need to be marked down if they are to be a real option compared with Defensive Blast and the best combat spells. If not, I don't think they will see much use by PC sorcerers, unless found on enemies, as the disadvantages are too restrictive. A scholar who has +15 Craft (alchemy) and who takes 10 can make 1 Blue Devil's-Flame in 3 weeks at the cost of 100 sp. But it requires a base where he can work undisturbed and an expensive lab (500+ sp). And this is maybe the most cost-effective alchemical item. The same scholar would have to spend 5 weeks and 166 sp for a single Kothic Demon-Fire (assuming take 10), which is roughly as strong as a single swing from the bardiche-wielding barbarian. It's no fun wasting 5 weeks and 166 sp only to roll a 3 when you throw the thing.
Another thing I would have welcomed if handled well is the "searching for ancient spellbooks" thing. From what I've seen there are basically two kinds of tomes. The first is the kind that gives certain benefits depending on your Decipher Script check. I haven't read most of these, but I have seen some, and the ones I've seen honestly doesn't seem worth braving entities from the Outer Dark for. The second is the D&D-style spellbook with several normal spells that can be learned more easily. This kind of tome isn't very attractive either, as a sorcerer already has plenty of options when choosing his spells. The Independent is perhaps the best, but by choosing a master/demon/religion carefully the other backgrounds can also control their spell lists to some extent. Enterprising GM's may already have houseruled this, but I doubt all of them have done it without significantly detracting from the enjoyment of playing a sorcerer. The problem with such a houserule from a PC's point of view is that Conan sorcerers have a fixed spell progression, and if a good spell isn't available (and there's a fair chance it won't be at low levels) you may be forced to accept a "junk" spell or 2 skill points. I would like the Conan sorcerer to be based on the D&D wizard, instead of the D&D sorcerer. That way GM's would have the option of withholding spells for later levels without wrecking the PC sorcerer. Another benefit would be that sorcerers of similar levels could know very different quantities of spells, depending on age, connections, and inclination to go hunting for tomes. This would also fix the strange situation that legendary 20th-level sorcerers find themselves in under the RAW where they are totally unable to learn even the simplest new spells from the lowest of acolytes.
After all these complaints I'd like to add that Ian Sturrock also got many things right in Conan, but listing them here as well would make this already large post monstrously so
.Sutek: I haven't seen anything in AE or SoS suggesting that Energy Drain or Defensive Blast should call for a Corruption save. I believe if this was the intention it would have been stated in the relevant sections. I think the mention of "sorcerous practices" refers to spells/rituals like Demonic Pact. I haven't read most of the creature sections, nor the magic items in SoS, so there may be something supporting your claim there.
I agree that Gelid Bones is useful, but I don't think it's necessarily a great choice for a sorcerer. This spell should primarily be useful at levels 4-7, before Dread Serpent and later Death Touch become available. If you take both Curses and Oriental Magic at levels 1,2, or 4, you had better find a third style with lots of good low-level spells. If not you'll be forced to spend several of your 6 (assuming 14 Int at level 7) precious spell slots on the many "junk" low-level spells in these styles, or even 2 skill points.
My sorcerer became "scary-good" upon reaching 6th level, which Thulsa will probably attest to
, when I chose the Opportunistic Sacrifice feat and used it with Defensive Blast. Of course, he was still extremely vulnerable to attacks, but these two combined allowed me to obliterate several powerful melee enemies that could easily have wiped out our strong warriors. Any sorcerer who chooses Ritual Sacrifice and then Opportunistic Sacrifice at 6th level will be very dangerous offensively, as long as he puts some thought into using DB effectively.It seems there has been a miscommunication between us here. I used the "no permanent harm" argument to justify why a non-evil sorcerer might resort to Energy Drain as an alternative to an evil sorcerer's ritual sacrifice. Even if the damage was permanent it should not result in Corruption.thulsa said:
PrettyMuchEveryoneWhoHasSpokenAboutCorruption: I find myself disagreeing with everyone here when it comes to Corruption. I've listed all instances of Corruption saves that I'm aware of in books by Ian Sturrock here. They all have a common theme: Certain kinds of contact with demons or objects tainted by demons. Several of these saves stem from situations where the Corruption victim didn't necessarily do anything evil. This combined with no formula for DCs and several sections in the books describing arguably very evil actions (Ritual Sacrifice, Opportunistic Sacrifice, Tortured Sacrifice, Energy Drain, slavery, crafting aberrations and new life, casting spells like Summon Demon and Black Plague and so on) without any mention of Corruption saves makes me conclude that evil does not make you Corrupt, even though Corruption makes you evil. We also have to consider the campaign consequences of the evil causes Corruption view. Hyboria is replete with evil people, and the Will saves of most people are bound to be low. It certainly doesn't help that the DC increases with the current amount of Corruption. The bottom line is that anyone who leads a lifestyle that regularly includes the evil acts the rest of you would call for a Corruption save for, will eventually turn into a mutant. Depending on that person's lifestyle and the evil "bar" the individual GM sets this could happen very fast. Do you really want "common" torturers, rapists, slavers, pedophiles, murderers and so on to metamorphose into mutants? Since all of you seem to disagree with me on this one, I'd like you to know if you consider your view an interpretation of the RAW or a houserule.
I'll sum up my opinion on Corruption for anyone still reading. Corruption is demonic taint. Roughly speaking, "close" contact with demons or objects tainted by them is the only source of Corruption. Evil acts, no matter how vile or far-reaching, never cause Corruption unless they also include "close" contact. The use of magic, no matter how frequent or powerful, never causes Corruption unless it also includes "close" contact.
And if this post doesn't earn me a spot in the Rant Hall of Fame, I don't know what will
.
