Any of you have modified the rules?

[VincentDarlage]

Since all of you seem to disagree with me on this one, I'd like you to know if you consider your view an interpretation of the RAW or a houserule.

I don't disagree with you; Corruption comes up so infrequently in my games I had simply forgotten there actually was a definitive list beyond the otherwise vague definitions in the book; my hat is off to you for the original collection of the list material as well as the welcome reminder of that list. Since I haven't given anyone in my games Corruption except for the reasons listed in the books, I'd say I play it RAW. Your post was good then, and still is 100% accurate. Your argument is iron-clad on this issue.

 

[Boreas]

Hey Turim,

Just reading your cool rant...

Ummm, whilst I was reading I had a thought about energy drain &
pp's therefrom.

I don't have the rule book in front of me & can't honestly say that
I've read about this particular problem in a while as I won't allow
PC Scholars in my game, but...

How about tying the pp's gained into the victim's highest characteristic
(equating in some way to their life force, or favour in the eyes of the
gods) modifier in some way...
eg A young girl with a 16 Charisma (+3 bonus), or
a Warrior with a 16 Constitution (+3 bonus)
Both scenarios give a +3 modifier, which can then have some sort
of multiplier attached to it. (3 x 2 = 6pp's)
A Circumstance bonus could be added into the equation, for example -
if the young girl is also a virgin give a +2 circumstance bonus...
Therefore...(+3 + 2) x 2 = 10pp's

Don't know if this would be workable, but I hope somebody can run
with it.

Cheers

 

[thulsa]

Actually, sorry, that wasn't meant to be a personal attack. It was meant to me a commentary on the humanocentric values that it shows. From the perspective of anything else corruption can mean many different things. I personally just see that the corruption that humanity takes from alien entities is a result of humans emulating those entities. Those entities aren't corrupt in and of themselves, instead they are corrupt in that they cause humans to mimic them.

The Conan stories by REH are humanocentric.

D&D is a literal freak show where humans sit in taverns and drink ale with halflings and trolls (and nobody would raise an eyebrow if a beholder walked, er, floated into that tavern, at least not in the FR).

The Hyborian Age, on the other hand, is basically our own Earth in the not-too distant past, populated entirely by human races. Anything we would deem unnatural in our age (such as tentacled creatures from outer space, or fire elementals, or werewolves) is just as unnatural in the Hyborian Age. That is a feature of the setting, not a fault.

- thulsa

 

[Trodax]

We also have to consider the campaign consequences of the evil causes Corruption view. Hyboria is replete with evil people, and the Will saves of most people are bound to be low. It certainly doesn't help that the DC increases with the current amount of Corruption. The bottom line is that anyone who leads a lifestyle that regularly includes the evil acts the rest of you would call for a Corruption save for, will eventually turn into a mutant. Depending on that person's lifestyle and the evil "bar" the individual GM sets this could happen very fast. Do you really want "common" torturers, rapists, slavers, pedophiles, murderers and so on to metamorphose into mutants?

This is a very good argument for why sacrificing people and similar acts should not cause Corruption. I can't really see a moral difference between sacrificing someone to harvest their life-force and, for example, torturing someone to death just for the sake of it.
Elongated teeth, enlarged, bulging heads and ape-like gaits should be the realm of sorcerers, and sorcerers alone. If various "evil" acts cause Corruption, then these traits will start "spilling over" to all the other bastards of the world, just as you say. In my mind, this would almost make Conan a little more like D&D, with evil being something very concrete, and having visible consequences.

As I've been playing it, only the stuff specifically listed as causing Corruption (for example, demonic pact) has done so. So, sacrifices and other evil acts have not made you Corrupt. As a consequence, Corruption hasn't showed up much in my game. Having followed this thread, though, I was almost about to change my ways because Sutek was making such a good argument for it. But dammit, Turim; your argument is even better!

I'll sum up my opinion on Corruption for anyone still reading. Corruption is demonic taint.

Having heard your argument; I agree with you 100%.

I must say that this thread has had some very good posts (Sutek, Vincent, Turim), and its been a great read. So kudos' to all; this forum rocks!

 

[Weaver]

I run it pretty much as is- but I use Raven's Rules just so there's more to play with. What is listed is pretty lean.

 

[sanseveria]

I use the rules pretty much as written. I do have one rule that I added from D&D's Unearted Arcana, I use Reserve Points. For Conan I think they fit in great.

SS

 

[Vincent791]

It seems that using the whole system is the way to go.

I'd really like to have the Howard feeling in our adventures, and not just "D&D in Hyboria"

 

[René]

Some spells calaculate their effect according to the Scholar level of the caster, which looks on the first very logical, e.g Calm of the Adept: one hour / Scholar level.

But what do you do, when you have a Khitan Noble 8 / Scholar 1 casting the spell? To give him the 1 hour-duration as the rules demand doesn't look realistic, so I changed the rules:

substitute "Scholar level" with "2x base Magic Attack Bonus"

This leaves pure Scholars as they are (10th level Scholar has base MAB +5), but also reflects the magical ability the other classes have according to their progression.

 

[Sutek]

Whew!

Seriously though, great points, but I thought that my posts were typically too long. Now I dont'feel so bad...



Anyway, I do agree with most of what you said and propose this: Why don't we start a Defensive Blast Fix thread. I'll do it after this. Not to force Mongoose to make a change, but to simply reach a concensus on the best way to augment it. Personally, I think simply stating that it can't be used with Opp.Sacrifice, making it force the caster to make a FORT save or be Fatigued, and to drop the Fire damage would suffice, but that's just me.

How does that sound?

Now to the following:

Sutek: I haven't seen anything in AE or SoS suggesting that Energy Drain or Defensive Blast should call for a Corruption save. I believe if this was the intention it would have been stated in the relevant sections. I think the mention of "sorcerous practices" refers to spells/rituals like Demonic Pact. I haven't read most of the creature sections, nor the magic items in SoS, so there may be something supporting your claim there.

"Certain magical artifacts, cursed treasures and sorcerous practice" can cause a COrruption save. It's left vague because while Greater Warding[/i] won't scare the crap out of someone enough for them to feel corrupted, witnessing Draw Forth the Heart darn well should. I think anytime a character witnesses something shocking or horrible that a Corruption save is possible. Now, that doesn't mean it'll happen all the time, I'm just a fan of using the rule to manage the spell world of the Conan RPG. It acts as a check and balance system against sorcerers running amok, unless they want to go all "Vincent Price Evil".

I agree that Gelid Bones is useful, but I don't think it's necessarily a great choice for a sorcerer. This spell should primarily be useful at levels 4-7, before Dread Serpent and later Death Touch become available. If you take both Curses and Oriental Magic at levels 1,2, or 4, you had better find a third style with lots of good low-level spells. If not you'll be forced to spend several of your 6 (assuming 14 Int at level 7) precious spell slots on the many "junk" low-level spells in these styles, or even 2 skill points.

My reference of Gelid Bones was in respect to the comment made that there weren't any good attack spells. Totally paralyzing someoen is pretty good, wouldn't yuou say? (lol) Granted there's not fireballs, chain lightning and magic missiles everywhere, but this isn't D&D. Good sorcerers ought to be able to threaten kingdoms based on 2 or 3 nasty spells and thier corrupt influence alone.

I do sort of agree that the lower level spells in the given schools are not quite ballanced. But, I also see soem schools as being a better track to take to avoid corruption because the spells aren't all evil and stuff. Oriental is a perfect example where there's no attack spell at all, so no real chance at corruption.

Then again, I suppse it's worth noting that I really like the meta-rules presented in Conan like Corruption and Reputation. I feel that these are almost more a reason to play than leveling up, really. So maybe that's why I have a broader interpretation of Corruption Saves here than you do, Turim.

PrettyMuchEveryoneWhoHasSpokenAboutCorruption: I find myself disagreeing with everyone here when it comes to Corruption. I've listed all instances of Corruption saves that I'm aware of in books by Ian Sturrock here. They all have a common theme: Certain kinds of contact with demons or objects tainted by demons.
[...]
I'll sum up my opinion on Corruption for anyone still reading. Corruption is demonic taint. Roughly speaking, "close" contact with demons or objects tainted by them is the only source of Corruption. Evil acts, no matter how vile or far-reaching, never cause Corruption unless they also include "close" contact. The use of magic, no matter how frequent or powerful, never causes Corruption unless it also includes "close" contact.

I won't sidpute that those are instances written in th books, but the level of corruption of the average slaver I'd say would level off at 5-6. They aren't really going to be exposed to corrupting effects enough to make them eager to seek out demonic consultation or whatever. I'm not advocating mutating the countryside of Hyboria here (lol) I'm just saying that because Corruption causes Insanities (not evil) and that anmorla behavior causes Corruption (pretty clearly stated on pg 189 AE) then Corruption can be used as a deterant to DBing left right and center. That's the core of what I was getting at. Use Corruption as a mitigating factor in limiting DB, Drain and other activities you as a GM want to keep in check. Another approach would be Raven's in which the "bad guys" become just as unrelenting and start wiping out PCs (hehe), but I'm suggesting using Corruption as a more diplomatic appraoch instead of killing off PCs that ire me.

And if this post doesn't earn me a spot in the Rant Hall of Fame, I don't know what will .

Oh....you're in, bro!!!

 

[Ltlconf]

Hello Folks,

We pretty much play as written. I think the only thinhg we've messed with is some of the particulars of the weapons based on our research and reenacting experience(weights, finesse or not, one or two handed, striking to one side ect. Though we've changed damage on only one or two). We've upped the damage potential on aimed strikes with daggers and shortswords during a grapple/ point blank struggle (also based on personal experience). Now even a big bad barbarian at 9th level is worried about getting a knife in the gut! We've been adding to the equipment list also based on the same. We worry little about "balance," after all what in life is either fair or balanced on a whole :twisted: ! Just makes us players work harder to stay alive!

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Hmm lots of bandwidth here-

VincentD: I haven't really missed any 'point', I've come to a different conclusion. Moongoose came up with an engine that fixed a great many flaws in the 3.5 D&D system- and then turned around and restricted it to a single fantasy concept. I think Mongoose dropped the ball- they could have published it as Mongoose Fantasy Roleplaying and made Conan one of several world books. Would have left a lot more growth potential that way and still let us have the Hyborian world. I don't think any old timers here are surprised to hear me say that I am in fact not a REH fan- I just use the prefab world because it's already made. I am also a player in an forum game using the Conan engine for a the more traditional fanatsy world of The Iron Kingdoms- It has elves and dwarves etc, but is still humancentric and low magic. Works fine and we use 'Raven's Rules' for the magic system. 8)

The 'non-human blood is unnatural' thread has moved to 'Raven's Rules for Sorcery v 1.1' if anyone is actually following it.

As for the 'soul rape' of leeching Power Points out of someone think of it this way. The sorcerer is literally sucking at the magical force holding his victim's body and mind together and likely warpinghis own aura by drawin gin someone else's unfiltered energy. That sort of thing can mutate a person if done enough times I'd say. I'd call for a Corruption Check. And yes- I do call for Corruption Checks for the drastic misuse of 'ordinary' magic. This is the very force that hold Creation together- including the caster!- being manipulated here. Magic can destroy you inside and out- no Fallen influence needed though 'once you start down that path' as Sutek's current favourite movie guru might say- the more likely such being would be drawn like a fly to excrement to the sorcerer.

 

[Sutek]

I agree. Magic is coming from somewhere, even if the Sorcer isn't in a direct pact with a deamon or somesuch. It's other-worldly, make no mistake, and there's no reason even the simplest spell could cause the caster to risk corrupting effects, at least in my opinion. Magic is not to be taken lightly or toyed with and it's a path to wickedness beyond what any banal human is capable of without it.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Magic is not to be taken lightly or toyed with and it's a path to wickedness beyond what any banal human is capable of without it.

Or Grace beyond measure as well- Magic embraces saint and sinner. It's what you do with it that determines what changes for good or ill it makes in you.

 

[thulsa]

I'll sum up my opinion on Corruption for anyone still reading. Corruption is demonic taint. Roughly speaking, "close" contact with demons or objects tainted by them is the only source of Corruption. Evil acts, no matter how vile or far-reaching, never cause Corruption unless they also include "close" contact.

I agree, except where you say "the only" source of corruption (italics added by me).

The use of magic, no matter how frequent or powerful, never causes Corruption unless it also includes "close" contact.

I don't agree. The part about "certain sorcerous practices" possibly allows the interpretation that Drain (and casting certain spells) causes Corruption. I can see your point about how this should have been stated under each description, but we both know the Conan RPG is full of instances where the rules are vague (perhaps on purpose, to empower the DM) or contradictory.

My point: I agree with you that "evil acts" (lies, torture, rape, etc) do not cause Corruption; the point about mutant peasants is well taken. However, sorcery or magic can, IMHO, cause Corruption under certain circumstances, even without demonic contact.

It says in the book that the sorcerer's soul is permanently changed when he learns magic (the Rule of the Sorcerer's Soul). Magic can change (and possibly corrupt) you if you make the "wrong" (or easy) choices as a sorcerer; the part about "sorcerous practices" makes it possible for the DM to "tempt" the sorcerer -- here are some easy ways to gain power, but they might also corrupt you. Or you can be a Good Boy and take Greater Meditation.

Since sorcerers practice magic, they risk being Corrupted. Your average Hyborian Torturer1/Rapist1/Slaver1/Pedophile1/Murderer1, even though a "monster", does not practice sorcery, and will thus never mutate and grow bat wings no matter how vile acts he performs.

- thulsa

 

[Trantor]

We play every campaign (right now: Cthulhu 1920, Cthulhu Now, Traveller, Midgard, Conan) with GURPS rules. Some work with translating, but all are satisfied with the rules. Never liked d20 much, I guess

 

[Turim]

Boreas: You mention Energy Drain in your post, but are you actually thinking of sacrifice instead? Because I think many of us would agree that Energy Drain doesn't need to be boosted in any way .

Sutek: I like Reputation, too. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Corruption . Interestingly, Oriental Magic has what is probably the strongest attack spell in Conan, namely Yimsha's Carpet. You mention using Corruption as a limiting factor. Does this mean you might run Corruption as demonic taint only, if these problem abilities were somehow balanced?

Thulsa: I'd like to know which spells do you think should require a Corruption save in addition to Energy Drain? And if Energy Drain causes Corruption, then sacrifice should cause Corruption as well, seeing as they're both described together and sacrifice is pretty much a "greater" Energy Drain. I'd say Power Transfer (AE, pages 186-187) is also similar enough to warrant Corruption with this interpretation, and if you disagree, acolytes could be used as Corruption-filters by Transferring the PPs they Drained to you. Now if the entries for say, Energy Drain, Ritual Sacrifice, Opportunistic Sacrifice, Power Transfer, and Bleed Dry all described a Corruption save, I'd agree that leaving out mention of a Corruption save in the entry for Tortured Sacrifice would most likely be an error. But since none of these nor any of the many spells that require a sacrifice or treats the victim of the spell as one mention a Corruption save, and a lot of instances that support the demonic taint approach made it into AE and SoS, I'd say it's extremely unlikely this is an editing mistake, at least.

If Ian Sturrock wanted very flexible Corruption rules, he could have easily expressed this with a single sentence. And some kind of ballpark DC wouldn't have hurt, either. Now I can't prove he didn't want flexible rules, but I'd say "sorcerous practices" almost definitely refers to Vampire Transformation and Demonic Pact, so at least there is a reason for that part of the sentence to be there.

Breaking down Energy Drain, I can think of 4 things that are characteristic to this ability.
1) It's arguably evil, but we already agree that evil alone is not enough, so this isn't what makes it Corruptive.
2) It gives the sorcerer 1d4 PPs, but Greater Meditation and Debaucher generate even more PPs, and they don't require a Corruption save from the sorcerer. Greater Meditation is even anti-Corruption, so I'd say gaining PPs isn't Corruptive either.
3) It does 2d6 temporary Wisdom damage, or 1d4 PP damage. Defensive Blast and many spells have arguably much more drastic effects on their targets than this ability. Should the use of all of them also cause Corruption?
4) It's arguably use of magic, but most spells would probably qualify as a "stronger" use of magic. Energy Drain is after all a minor touch effect that any lowly 1st-level sorcerer can use at will. Most spells are more extensive regarding many of these parameters: Effect, PPs involved, range, area, and duration. Should the use of these spells cause Corruption?

I'll finish with an example: Sorcerer A ("neutral alignment", 0 Corruption, Stygian) has somehow come upon his powerful enemy, the now helpless Sorcerer B (0 Corruption, 50 PPs stored right now). In case you think 50 PPs is too much, it could just as well have been two sorcerers with 25 PPs each. Sorcerer A decides to Energy Drain Sorcerer B, both to gimp him and because he could use the PPs. Even if Sorcerer A has a slightly better than 50% chance of making the save, he will still likely end up with 10 Corruption because of the save penalty from current Corruption and likely Insanity. Do you think it's reasonable that an uncorrupted "neutral" sorcerer should become extremely evil, get a major insanity, warp into a mutant, become permanently possessed by a demon, and afflict anyone in close contact with Corruption, all after only 20 rounds (2 minutes) of stealing PPs from a rival sorcerer?

 

[Sutek]

Ah, but you have a choice: live your life, steal, own slaves and doo all the dirtry little things everyone eles in the world does that are considered...wicked?

Or, you can choose to drain the life essence out of people.

The normal, every day, gritty, dirty ways of the Hyborian world are nasty and abhorant, but they aren't necessarily corrupting. Repeater torture, even if not from and arcane source ought to garner some chance of corruption, at least in my opinion, but using mystic practices to suck life directly from someone is diabolical, even if in a minor way. It's vampiric, but not even from a standpoint of "vampires gotta eat somethin'!" Draining those 1d4 PP from someone (or something) is a wholely elective act, and therefore quite a step beyond merely chaining someone up and making them wash you dishes or plant your crops.

 

[urdinaran]

C'mon....

We gonna get this thread to 5+ pages or what??? Can I get a HELL YEAH ???

 

[Trodax]

If Ian Sturrock wanted very flexible Corruption rules, he could have easily expressed this with a single sentence. And some kind of ballpark DC wouldn't have hurt, either. Now I can't prove he didn't want flexible rules, but I'd say "sorcerous practices" almost definitely refers to Vampire Transformation and Demonic Pact, so at least there is a reason for that part of the sentence to be there.

Exactly. I think Turims interpretation of the RAW is correct (if you want to force Corruption for sacrifices in your game, thats of course fine and dandy, though :wink: ).

The description of Corruption even says:
"All Corruption saving throws are made at a DC set by the entity, sorcerer or objects Magical Attack Roll."
This indicates to me that Corruption is only caused by interacting with demons, other corrupted sorcerers and tainted objects (that have a Magic Attack Roll), and not, for example, sacrifices and energy drain.
How would you calculate the DC for such a Corruption save?

 

[Sutek]

Okay...how would one arrive at a DC?

Say my sorcerer is going to drain energy. Let's say he's going to use Pull Forth The Heart and Opportunistic Sacrifice on someone to drain energy. The Corruption save is based, according to the rules, on his Magic Attack Roll - the very roll he is using to cast his own spell. He makes a Will save versus himself, but how appropriate is that - he's succumbing to the potentially corrupting effects of his own actions.

So let's take a different angle: my argument that even torture causes corruption.

A Priate slaver tortures one of his slaves. There's not a Magic Attack roll, so that value is zero, but he has a MAB and a Charisma modifier. Pretty easiy Will save to make, but if he rolls under the low number (or rolls a 1 which is always a failure) he could suffer corruption. Unlikely, but possible, and current corruption acts as a circumstance modifier to the DC, increasing it the more corrupt you already are.

Insanities only affect sorcerers, and someone with no magical capabilities would be hard pressed to ever gain enough corruption (unless he was REALLY vile) without use of spells, so mutation isn't likely, but is is feasible (and cool story-wise) that a seriously reprehensible villain, corrupt only by non-magickal means, could physically be warped by his deplorable evil.

At least I think so...

Since sorcerers practice magic, they risk being Corrupted. Your average Hyborian Torturer1/Rapist1/Slaver1/Pedophile1/Murderer1, even though a "monster", does not practice sorcery, and will thus never mutate and grow bat wings no matter how vile acts he performs.

I simply don't think that's the case. First of all, Corruption rolls are only based off of the Magic Attack roll, but it doesn't say that a Magic Attack Roll has to take place in order to suffer Corruption (eg. being in the presence of a deamon). Secondly, Sorcerers get the worst of it as far as Corruption goes, but that's merely because "thier research typicvally causes them to make more saving throws against corruption than most adventurers."

I mean, it's a lot more like Insanity in the Call of Cthulhu games. The stages of corruption are more a result of being unsettledf by events to the extent of losing control over one's free will to a degree. Sorcerers are the only characters who will suffer actual insanities, be them major or minor. You Barbarian will never have to worry about that. But, would that Barbarian have to be concerned about being Troubled (plagued by nightmares; suffers from drug/alchohol adiction, etc.) or Disturbed (questions his ethics and religion; may lose a code of honor). Even 1-4 points can make for some very interesting role playing situations, and act as a very good means to keep characters on a generally "good" moral path, even if they ahve to do some really aweful things without actually using magic in order to suffer them.