AM I DAFT OR.....

[Chobbly]

In Crusade we see the Excaliber launching Starfuries and Thunderbolts, at least a couple of squadrons of each-ish.

There is the strange drop-down carousel that holds about 6 T-bolts and the main hanger which holds the rest and at least 2 shuttles and Galen's ship.

As to which is stronger - Excaliber wins. She is bigger, faster, built with higher tech, and in the battle against the Drak in A Call to Arms Sheridan tells the Earth it is the Excaliber that has the best chance of destroying the Death Cloud, and the EF ships (including Warlocks) were to clear his path to engage it. Surely if the Warlock was more pwerful it would have been the other way around?

Just my 0.02 cr worth..

DW

I agree with you there totally. The Excalibur was built with Vorlon, Minbari and Human tech. The Warlock was built with Mostly Human tech, a little Shadow, and whatever bits of Minbari technology that were necessary to facilitate gravity, as per Delenn's agreement at the end of Season 4 to President Luchenko.

There isn't many Warlock class ships either, perhaps even less than a dozen. There is a comment in one of the later episodes of Crusade (Each Night I Dream Of Home) which sums up the point rather nicely.

Only a handful of Warlock destroyers have come off the construction lines so far. Whoever's on that shuttle must be pretty important to justify them playing taxi - Matthew Gideon

Chobbly

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

Traveller-61 has answered the bit about the Victory Class having fighters and Chobbly has taken care of the number of Warlocks running around. However, my only goal here was to compare the capabilities of two seperate ships, not who could beat up who. Don't get me wrong, I think the Warlock is probably one of the nastiest customers out there; able to give a Sharlin a run for its money as well as a small flight of White Stars. However, it just doesn't have the technical design benefits that the Victory Class does.

Side Note: As to the inability of the Interstellar Alliance to produce more Victory Class vessels goes, well, who knows what Mr. Garibaldi might have done to safeguard the technical knowledge regarding his pet project. Lord knows that once the Drakh destroy their production site he isn't going to tell a soul he might still have the data in order to keep it safe. Just thought I'd toss that out in order to get everybody's noodle smoking. :wink:

 

[LoneStranger]

Yeah I can imagine Garibaldi would have a copy of the plans stashed in at least 3 separate places requiring two entire sectors of space to be blown up to get em all. He's paranoid enough to do that.

 

[CARTMAG]

this is garibaldi he probably does have secrets that even he dosent know stashed in places and has realy obscure clues set around the universe that only he would know the answer too.. but if i remember correctly the Trator is the only one that knew everything that went into the building of the Excalaber and her (destried) sister ship...

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

Yes, but we also know that Garibaldi was probably very helpful to the Rogue telepaths in the Teep War so he may of had a stray favor or two around to pull the information.

But that's just circumspect analysis, and we all know he would never do any such thing, right.

Course, this begs the question why didn't he know about the traitor then?

 

[Greg Smith]

While the traitor may have been the only person to know everything about the Victory-class ships, he couldn't have designed and built the ship single handed. Between all of the other engineers, designers and technicians they would probably be able to bulid another ship. Maybe the traitor had to iron out a few kinks before the ship was finished, but an equally talented engineer could do the same.

It would make an interesting campaign to have Garibaldi send the PCs to comb the galaxy for hidden plans and missing engineers, so that the VCD could be rebuilt.

 

[Natxomann]

1- The ISA could built new VCDs in a few years (Sheridan's words at the end of ACtA), mostly due to the fact that most of the engineers and plans refered to the project were lost when the shipyard was attacked by the Drakh . In fact , they pretent to put them in production as soon as the lost levels of research and work experience are recovered , so we can reasonablily assume that perhaps in 8-10 years , the Ranger fleet will be reinforced by a few VDCs .
2 - The Victory-class starship was designed as a heavier and more advanced version of some of the main capital ships deployed by some Alliance's races , ships like the Omega-class destroyer or the Sharlin-class warcruiser , a powerfully armed warship , capable also of depoying a powerful contingent of fighters . We can see that the ship can deploy a substantial number of fighters (perhaps 36+) on several Crusade episodes ("Warzone" , "Racing the night" or "Each night I dream of home" comes to mind just now).
3 - One of the reasons why the VCD is so polemic among B5 fans (specially those like myself that are specially interested in space warfare) is the "magic" main gun , which makes virtually impossible to quantify how powerful or effective is really this ship when compared to other , more conventional designs , like the Warlock or the Sharlin .
What most people is missing here is the fact that the VCD design very unconventional when compared with all those ships .
A typical warship is a weapons platform , designed to field a certain array of weapons , and usually a few (or a lot of) fighters , and as a weapopn's platform , every design must meet certain operational criteria , but in the end , the configuration of weapon system must be adjusted to the characteristics of the ship's hull , and the intended missions , thus we have long range gunnery platforms like the Omega or the Sharlin , armed with long range beam weapons , supported by short range , light weaponrs to protect the ship's flanks against fighters or light attack ships , or powerful , all-around gunships , armed with powerful main guns for the long range duels and also powerful secondary batteries to engage enemy capital ships at shorter ranges (mainly the Warlock and Hyperion , but also the Nova) .
What make the Victory a different ship is the fact that the weapons system is not configured around the ship's design or intended missions , but the fact that the entire ship is designed around the main weapon , and this is the reason why it has so few secondary weapons .
Simply put , the VCD was designed to be a ship killer , capable also of deploying a powerful contingent of fghters , and becoming a natural space control/space superiority warship , capable not of inflict considerable damage on other ships (like a Sharlin or Warlock) , but of destroying them quickly (thus becoming indirectly a powerful deterrent weapon in a potentially conflictive area) .

 

[ShadowScout]

Of course, noone knows just how much of the research can be recovered. Personally I have been entertaining hopes that the secrets of the "magic gun" will be forever lost (or at least unavailable for the next few millenia), and future "Victory-II" class ships will have a far more reasonable spinal neutron laser instead... (which, while it will not be that powerful, also won't paralyze the ship for a minute after firing...) and that's what gonna happen in any of my campaigns! :wink:

But even without the magic gun, the Victory class isn't helpless by far. It has at least four Minbari-style Neutron Lasers in it's nose, and at least three in it's bu... aehhh... aft section, as well as two three-barrel turrets (which are probably Neutron lasers and fusion cannons in the ACtA version, and pulse cannons in the Crusade refit - or a combination array similar to what the Nova has) and lots of gatling-style defensive guns. That alone is more firepower then your average Sharlin... enough to take on almost every ship the younger races have (and easily deal with all but the nastiest of them - fights with an Minbari Shargoti, EA Warlock and Yolu Yuan could go either way I suppose... and I wouldn't suggest entering Tal-kona'sha space in anything less then a Vorlon Star Dreadnought... :wink: )

 

[El Cid]

Tal-kona'sha space????????????????

Huh?

Sidney

 

[Tegman]

Tal-kona'sha space????????????????

Huh?

Sidney

I second that, I would also like to know who/what they are and what kind of tech they have and where they are mentioned. They sound interesting tho :shock:

 

[Natxomann]

The Tal-Kona'Sha were a creration of Agents of Gaming , and they are a medium-level race (ie , a race the has surpassed the young race level) that employ a massive fleet of highly advanced , powerful organic ships to maintain their borders closed to everyone , and they don´t take kindly anytype of intrusion (peaceful or otherwise) in their space .
You can find their southern frontier just to the north-west of the official RPG map , just to the west of the Hurr Republic and to the north of former Dilgar space .

 

[ShadowScout]

Exactly! :wink:

Aahhh, these are the details that can make a B5 campaign come alive... dropping strange alien names here and there... and then, once some player notices, and thinks to ask, show them that there are rumors and fluff behind these names... even if your campaign never gets near them, fearing of strange, new races does create a feeling that the player characters are moving through a universe, not just a theater scene... and the GM having all that info does make an impression of "he knows his stuff" too. Of course, it's even nicer if in a game you don't give out the info straight away. but bits and pieces, mixed with bull$#!+:
...the EA database tells the players the TKS are a highly advanced race that allows no visitors (true)
...rumors among some league races say the Dilgar started their invasion because they were trying to avoid the TKS (half-true, the Dilgar needed a new homeworld, and the presence of the TKS just denied them passage in That direction; and the space antispinward -left on the map- had no suitable worlds, that left invading the League...)
...the drazi pilot in the bar can tell them he once saw a TKS ship in hyperspace, and can describe their blue-gray surface, organic shape and incredible nimbleness (true)
...some Humans speculate that the TKS might be responsible for the solar flare of Omelos that wiped out the Dilgar (false)
...their Minbari contact can tell the PC's that the TKS are considered mid-born, and are best left alone (true)
...Yolu records indicate that the TKS kept up their policy of isolation at least for several thousand years, and didn't even get involved during any shadow war (true)
...Llort traders tell that the TKS are actually all dead, and have been for a long time, while their automated ships are mindlessly following millenia-old orders to guard their space, where untold treasures may await anyone who can sneak past (false, unless the GM wants it to be true)
...and the Abbai ambassador could even get them an unofficial copy of a spy-sat record that shows a Hurr exploration vessel being destroyed within seconds by a TKS Talec Sha patrol destroyer so that they can see their powerful gravitic weaponry in action (whoa! :wink: )

That's one of the reasons I like AoG's stuff soo much - it provides a wide range of BG fluff to exploit, and to build on. Though I am pretty certain Mongoose will bring out everything AoG did in their publications too, and then some as they build more aspects on the AoG foundation (just look at their racial factbooks!)

 

[redlaco]

Nice stuff ! 8)

Thanks ShadowScout & Natxomann for bringing the Tal-kona'sha to our attention (those poor souls that missed the B5Wars train). It will be used in my campaign to flesh out the universe as SC described...

 

[slingbld]

Hello,
Originator of this post run wild here

After reading all the posts & getting caught up to speed on how the discussion has turned. I just have to mention one simple thing, two words realy: "Reverse Engineering"

Ok, Earth was the power to build the ships in the 1st place. so we do have the ability, that's been proven. So it is not like we would be trying to reverse engineer pure Vorlon tech with no guidelines as to what items do what function. I realy feel that once the excalibur could be brought in for about 6 months to a year's worth of downtime & investigation, diagnostic testing & simple tear down & rebuild, we would be able to fully start manufacturing more of them.

Now a convenient thing with Crusade is that the Excalibur cannot be brought in for that kind of downtime until the cure is found, that basicaly puts it about 5-7 years off before we even begin to produce these babies again. Now if you have but one or two yards dedicated to thier construction for secrecies sake, then you wind up with 1-2 being built about every 18-24 months.

But the VCD could see use en masse in the near future for the rangers....

Just my 2 bits

Slingbld~

P.S.: yer all as daft as I am, but that's a good thing.... I think.....

 

[Mongoose Si]

Now a convenient thing with Crusade is that the Excalibur cannot be brought in for that kind of downtime until the cure is found, that basicaly puts it about 5-7 years off before we even begin to produce these babies again.

I think the intention with Crusade was that a cure would have been found within 1 or 2 years (the cure was not the main story), so they would probably be available much sooner.

 

[CARTMAG]

my big problem is WHY... the truth is monetarily wise the VCD isnt a very practical ship to have more then maby 1 or 2 in the whole fleet.. yes it may be able to throw out a crap load of fighters but the truth is its a design that has too many flaus the biggest one beeing the drain on the main gun.... I do love B5 but if i was desining a ship as soon as I found out the drain on my power would make my ship that vulnerable i would have scraped the main gun and put smaller more Efficient guns in its place.... thats why I was saying earlier that the Warlock is a better ship due to the fact it dosent have that main defect which is in my opinion eventauly a death centance.. because as soon as the ship goes down.. you have a few ships waiting for that to happen and have them strike while everyone is buisy fighting the fighters....... so truth be told after they built the Excalaber and her sister why would you WANT more....

 

[nitflegal]

But even without the magic gun, the Victory class isn't helpless by far. It has at least four Minbari-style Neutron Lasers in it's nose, and at least three in it's bu... aehhh... aft section, as well as two three-barrel turrets (which are probably Neutron lasers and fusion cannons in the ACtA version, and pulse cannons in the Crusade refit - or a combination array similar to what the Nova has) and lots of gatling-style defensive guns. That alone is more firepower then your average Sharlin... enough to take on almost every ship the younger races have (and easily deal with all but the nastiest of them - fights with an Minbari Shargoti, EA Warlock and Yolu Yuan could go either way I suppose... and I wouldn't suggest entering Tal-kona'sha space in anything less then a Vorlon Star Dreadnought... :wink: )

See, this is where my cynical mind kicks in. Based on what we hear in ActA, the Excalibur and Victory were the only the first in a series of Victory class uber ships. These ships would give a rather significant advantage to the IA, especially since most of the fleet actions that we saw had a rather small number of warships. A couple of Victories and a handful of Whitestars is a powerful fleet in B5 terms. Now, given President Nuke'em's tendency to flaunt the rules, lie, what have you to do what he thinks is "right" it's probably a good thing that he didn't get his uber-fleet. I wouldn't trust him with that much power, frankly. Now, by getting set back by a decade or so he gives the individual races time to implement the tech sharing and get more comparable ships. I expect the old League powers to have become a great deal more capable by 2275 or so. My personal choice for the IA would be that it is powerful enough to hold its own in a skirmish but would require outside support to take on an entire race. Gives them teeth but ensures that they can't seriously bite without support. Had Sheridan gotten his fleet of Victories, it might have gone kind of badly.


Which brings up one of the nicest things about the B5 lisence. Once the 2258-2262 era is relatively fleshed out, there is so much left to be done. You have the previous Shadow war (and many new races from the comic, remember those insectoid guys?) and you have very major events that will take place post 2262. What does the Centauri empire do? How does the IA develop? What do the Drazi do now that they've been catapulted into the limelight? Who are the "Hand"? What's gaurding Vorlon space that keeps everybody out? They have organic ships, do they have servitor races? What happened with the telepath war, did it spread to the other races?

It's an awfully rich tapestry to play in.

Matt

 

[nitflegal]

my big problem is WHY... the truth is monetarily wise the VCD isnt a very practical ship to have more then maby 1 or 2 in the whole fleet.. yes it may be able to throw out a crap load of fighters but the truth is its a design that has too many flaus the biggest one beeing the drain on the main gun.... I do love B5 but if i was desining a ship as soon as I found out the drain on my power would make my ship that vulnerable i would have scraped the main gun and put smaller more Efficient guns in its place.... thats why I was saying earlier that the Warlock is a better ship due to the fact it dosent have that main defect which is in my opinion eventauly a death centance.. because as soon as the ship goes down.. you have a few ships waiting for that to happen and have them strike while everyone is buisy fighting the fighters....... so truth be told after they built the Excalaber and her sister why would you WANT more....

Depnds on how you look at it. As an individual ship, it's kind of lame. As part of a fleet, it becomes much more important. Give the Victory a bunch of escorts and maybe a carrier to fly off some T-bolts or Nials and it can fire that main weapon and be protected. Keeps the enemy from bunching up because the Victory will smash them. Put two Victory's together and they can fire in turn. So long as you have good fighter cover, the other Victory and some escorts can handle the enemy's warships, especialy since if they try and pounce on the disabled Victory the other one will smash them when they bunch.

Picture this. You have two fleets, the IA has two Victory's, some escorts, and a carrier or two. They put up their fighter screens. At relatively long range, the first Victory targets the enemy's biggest or most powerful ship and fires, destroying it and likely any ship in front of it caught in the beam. Inertia keeps the Victory moving forward while it recovers. When it does or, assuming that there are no direct threats, even before the other Victory takes it's shot. And so on until the range closes. At that range, with the enemy forces hurt and disorganized, the Victory can use it's rather substantial secondary armament to help rout them.

Look at what that gun does. In a fleet, the Victory is a designated flagship or base/station killer. Now why would the IA need a warship purpose-built to kill military bases and fleets? Why concentrate all of those resources into one ship that can only take on one mission at a time when you could have fielded Whitestars or some other small but powerful ships in greater numbers. This tells me that the IA wasn't focussed on raiders and minor threats, they wanted to be able to hurt the major powers.

Matt

 

[Anonymous]

my big problem is WHY... the truth is monetarily wise the VCD isnt a very practical ship to have more then maby 1 or 2 in the whole fleet.. yes it may be able to throw out a crap load of fighters but the truth is its a design that has too many flaus the biggest one beeing the drain on the main gun.... I do love B5 but if i was desining a ship as soon as I found out the drain on my power would make my ship that vulnerable i would have scraped the main gun and put smaller more Efficient guns in its place.... thats why I was saying earlier that the Warlock is a better ship due to the fact it dosent have that main defect which is in my opinion eventauly a death centance.. because as soon as the ship goes down.. you have a few ships waiting for that to happen and have them strike while everyone is buisy fighting the fighters....... so truth be told after they built the Excalaber and her sister why would you WANT more....

Until we actually see the capabilities on paper the argument is theoretical. As such, I have always seen the Victory as just as powerful a combat vessel as the Sharlin, without needing to use the Main Gun. It would be able to stand toe to toe with the Warlock without using the main gun. Since we don't have the Warlock's stats either it's a little hard to surmise it's capabilities as we haven't really even seen them in combat.

Depnds on how you look at it. As an individual ship, it's kind of lame. As part of a fleet, it becomes much more important. Give the Victory a bunch of escorts and maybe a carrier to fly off some T-bolts or Nials and it can fire that main weapon and be protected. Keeps the enemy from bunching up because the Victory will smash them. Put two Victory's together and they can fire in turn. So long as you have good fighter cover, the other Victory and some escorts can handle the enemy's warships, especialy since if they try and pounce on the disabled Victory the other one will smash them when they bunch.

Picture this. You have two fleets, the IA has two Victory's, some escorts, and a carrier or two. They put up their fighter screens. At relatively long range, the first Victory targets the enemy's biggest or most powerful ship and fires, destroying it and likely any ship in front of it caught in the beam. Inertia keeps the Victory moving forward while it recovers. When it does or, assuming that there are no direct threats, even before the other Victory takes it's shot. And so on until the range closes. At that range, with the enemy forces hurt and disorganized, the Victory can use it's rather substantial secondary armament to help rout them.

Look at what that gun does. In a fleet, the Victory is a designated flagship or base/station killer. Now why would the IA need a warship purpose-built to kill military bases and fleets? Why concentrate all of those resources into one ship that can only take on one mission at a time when you could have fielded Whitestars or some other small but powerful ships in greater numbers. This tells me that the IA wasn't focussed on raiders and minor threats, they wanted to be able to hurt the major powers.

Matt

Yes, this is very definitely a fleet command ship or at the very least a space control ship. Heavy Fighter complement, lots of firepower, and a hefty defensive array. However, I in no way see this as a 'kind of lame' ship. The IA needed to increase their ability to wage effective war with those who were seeking it. The White Star fleet was in decline, and the IA was looking at possible confrontation the Centauri. It stands to reason that they would need a ship that could operate either by itself in order to police the borders between nations as well as provide a solid ship of the wall as it were. Something capable of focusing the enemy's attention while the agile White Stars and the fighters can make their strikes, take the damage, and then push forward to strike through the enemy formations.

 

[CARTMAG]

the truth is Yes it is a lame ship due to the fact that as soon as it fires its main weapon... all of the large ships target and fire on the victory and its for all intensive purposes dead in the water..... because it cant fire any of its defensive weapons while its dead.. and the truth is 1 minute can be the difference between life and death in battle....... the main gun is as bad of an idea as the Grav lance in the Honor Harrington series (great sci-fi series), it looks cool while firing but it realy has NO practical purpose in real combat...... just my opinion in this matter..... and the truth of the matter is you dont want a ship on the field of battle that after firing one of its weapons that is pretty much a very large Target...... because once it fires it becomes a huge liability because all that is needed is 1 lucky shot and you loose your best asset and any good commander will see it that way and as soon as it fires that gun the VCD is dead....