Alternate Beams

[Da Boss]

I think that is unlikely..............

Beams - its very difficult - few people liked the first edition as it made some ships too good and some ships virtually worthless...............

now we have a wholly different experience - the beams vary greatly in quality and just because your ship on paper has a high AD deos not mean it will perform well, average or even hit- alterntiavly it just may well vaporise a ship..................

Some examples from recent games:

A War level Shadow Ship (6 AD beam) gets 5 hits with its beam over 3 turns...........

12 dice beam gets 5 hits

1 dice fighter gets 5 hits

6 dice beam get 5 hits and and in the same turn a 8 dice beam gets 17 hits.................

now these are extreme examples and of course luck is always an element - the question should be - do we want a more reliable but potentially less deadly beam weapon - in which case the proposed version seems to fit well? perhaps some form of poll may help ?

 

[David Anla Shok']

I think that is unlikely..............

Beams - its very difficult - few people liked the first edition as it made some ships too good and some ships virtually worthless...............

now we have a wholly different experience - the beams vary greatly in quality and just because your ship on paper has a high AD deos not mean it will perform well, average or even hit- alterntiavly it just may well vaporise a ship..................

Some examples from recent games:

A War level Shadow Ship (6 AD beam) gets 5 hits with its beam over 3 turns...........

12 dice beam gets 5 hits

1 dice fighter gets 5 hits

6 dice beam get 5 hits and and in the same turn a 8 dice beam gets 17 hits.................

now these are extreme examples and of course luck is always an element - the question should be - do we want a more reliable but potentially less deadly beam weapon - in which case the proposed version seems to fit well? perhaps some form of poll may help ?

All true. But to discuss changing a rule while not changing the context of the game design around it (number of dice, ranges, etc) is folly. If the current rules are not predictable I find them to be frequently amusing and entertaining... the ship with on beam die that does a dozen hits, the KaBinTak and G'Vran side by side that fire everything at a hapless Vree Z'Takk only to deliver three hits. This makes for memorable games
While I would disagree with some of the mechanics involved, they are what they are. You can't pull in old rules or rules from other games (gawds teeth) and just plug them in. Why exchange one set of "problems" for what will probably be an even worse set of problems?

 

[Da Boss]

perhaps then question becomes - was the game balance based around the average beam hit being the AD of the beam?

ie a Shadow youngster should get 6 hits, A Sharlin 8 hits, a White Star 2 hits..............

If so becoming closer to the average would not then disrupt balance - indeed would help it ?

 

[David Anla Shok']

perhaps then question becomes - was the game balance based around the average beam hit being the AD of the beam?

ie a Shadow youngster should get 6 hits, A Sharlin 8 hits, a White Star 2 hits..............

If so becoming closer to the average would not then disrupt balance - indeed would help it ?

A better question might be, is predictability a goal or even desireable? While it is so in reality (sorry, used the R word) it is seldom achieved.

 

[Da Boss]

hmm - I and several people playing with recently would like a more predictable version - not totally so but more than at present........

 

[dag'karlove]

How are Beams not predictable now?
You should In Theory Hit 50% of the time. Lets say you have a 6 Beam TD weapon. You can expect at least 12-18 damage from it at a minimum, Unless you roll dice like me that is. You roll 6 dice ,3 should hit on the first role. Assuming that 50% hit again you would get 2 (Rounding The 1.5 dice to 2 dice hitting) and then again at 50% 1 hits. lets say you get the shorter end. AGian 3 Then only one and then 1 or 0. That to me is a pretty good estimation on what you can expect. Again there is some luck involved but not any more so than any other weapon.

 

[Da Boss]

Its the only weapon where you can just keep rolling and rolling- usually if you fire a weapon you have set number of dice with modifiers - a beam does not - it can just keep rolling to silly extents and I have yet to see any ACTA game where this has not happened - in the same way as I don't recall a game where a good sized beam has failed to hit completely. Yes they should balance out but often they do not and the game can turn on that one hit - which can be espcially galling of you are playing in a tournament or campaign and it comes from say a raid level ship on a war or higher ship..........

yes you should get roughly 6 hits with a 6 AD beam but you can also get 18 hits - something not possible with a straight dice weapon.

Tthe original idea makes the odds of getting the average larger and stops any chance of getting massive beam hits, also reducing the chance of a total miss. Now if that a good or bad thing depends on your perefences for the game but as I said many of those I play with consider it may be a good thing........but without playing it we don't know yet.

As I mentioned earlier if Game Balance was based around the average beam hits - this then would help balance?

 

[Iain McGhee]

I've had plenty of games where beams from cruiser-size ships have missed completely or scored less hits than half their beam AD. Far fewer games where beams have scored more hits than double their AD, most often about the same or at best half again as many. I'd bet that there's as many different experiences as there are players. If anything I've found them to be less powerful than in 1e, which I'm all for. I'm sure it averages out over time although I agree that the unpredictability can be a pain. But, as David said earlier, it does make for a more exciting game. And as others have mentioned, if you start messing about with the beam rules then there will likely be balance issues with many ships.

 

[CZuschlag]

Da Boss,

Ewww. Tricky question! The answer, to my personal chagrin, is no. However, there is the likelihood that, in the long term, the answer will be yes. How well will ACTA survive through that long term? That's (obviously, given the ACTA RIP thread's length) open to question.

We need to define balance, first. I defie it this way: A game is perfectly balanced if and only if equal players on opposite sides have a 50% chance to win the game. A game is well-balanced to within x if and only if equal plaers on oppostie sides have between a 50-x and 50+x chance to win.

Consider the situation if the game is perfectly balanced, but the dice are highly random. If this is the case, dice can roll up, and dice can roll down. I'd have to do a great deal of math to prove it, but I think that the balance would be unaffected. You go from a dispersion of results that look like this (Warning: bad ASCII art ahead!) --- the |'s are the divider for each side's chance at winning--


.......................xxx|xxx
................xxxxxxx|xxxxxxx
................xxxxxxx|xxxxxxx
...........xxxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxx
....xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

to one that looks like this.

...................x|x
.................xx|xx
.................xx|xx
.............xxxx|xxxx
.............xxxx|xxxx
...........xxxxx|xxxxx
....xxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxx

The actual chances to win are still about 50/50. You haven't improved the balance (and, indeed, it's not possible to .... it's already balanced).

However, consider the case where the game is not balanced. I've unbalanced the previous example by only one row. If you institute the random beam dice effect, you keep the distribution spread out....

.......................xx|xxxx
................xxxxxx|xxxxxxxx
................xxxxxx|xxxxxxxx
...........xxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxxx
....xxxxxxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(here, 36 vs. 46, out of balance by 6.1%)

... but the new beam rules will tighten that up, further exposing the weakness.

...................|xx
.................x|xxx
.................x|xxx
.............xxx|xxxxx
.............xxx|xxxxx
...........xxxx|xxxxxx
....xxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxx

(here, 20 vs. 34, out of balance by 12.9%)

What will this do to help us out, if it can only hurt balance?

1). It will put skill back into the game. I think that skill is strongly damped with the current beam rules; I prefer a far stronger skill component. Just me, I prefer a game that puts the emphasis sqaurely on skill (even like the old AH classics, like D-Day & Afrika Korps, Star Fleet Battles, Power Grid) than luck (Age of Imperialism, Naval Battles, Iron Dragon).

2). It will expose the balance errors on the beam ships one way or another, once and for all, and give us opportunities to go from Balanced to Within x to Balanced to Within (x-i). I consider this the biggest victory of the bunch, and may result in an accurate rebalancing of, Vorlons and, in particular, Shadows (Shadows are very hard to evaluate mathematically due to their maneouverability benefits; you're much better off just going with playtest.) It would be at the heart of unearth what truly balanced is. As I said before, there is a temptation to mask balance by large amount of dice. This would try to rectify that.

3). Due to its nature, it will result in a VERY slight boost for GEG-armed ships., for whom lots of fewer hits is more acceptable than a few zeros followed by a bomb.

 

[tschuma]

Please don't flame me, as I duck for cover, but what about going back to the first edition Beam Rules? There seems to be more discussion about 2E Beams than 1E.

At least the run away dice would only happen on a 6.

Just a thought, as I hide in a bunker in a unknown location!

 

[David Anla Shok']

I would have responded to the previous post but as it was soooooo long I thought it best not to.
Things are balanced, in their own way. While futzing with the beams might be fun to experiment with, and I will admit that the rule could use review for the next edition (hint, hint Mongoose, this game won't die), doing so casually will most likely cause more problems than it will solve. Yes, I know, my old english teacher will have harsh words about the construction of that last sentence.
So much else in the game has been changed and not always for the better. Also, I used a G'Quan for the first time in a very long time. I'm not saying that it got castrated or anything, but if anyone sees something rolling around could my G'Quan have them back please?

 

[dag'karlove]

Well David I agree that The Gquan Did loose its testicles In 2 ed. But My Whitestars couldnt hit the Broad side of the Barn from The inside Friday night. My BEAM rolls Blew Chunks. (My Dodge rolls rules though).However I dont think They (being the beam rules)need to be changed.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Well David I agree that The Gquan Did loose its testicles In 2 ed. But My Whitestars couldnt hit the Broad side of the Barn from The inside Friday night. My BEAM rolls Blew Chunks. (My Dodge rolls rules though).However I dont think They (being the beam rules)need to be changed.

Yes. But that is because JoBoo hates you.... he let you live so that you could continue to miss things....

 

[tschuma]

dag'karlove

My Gunship rolled 2,2,3,3 on its Beam rolls Friday night, so I feel your pain!

 

[dag'karlove]

I Guess The dancing White star Carrier (Dodged 60% of the hits) made up for it.

 

[Greg Smith]

Also, I used a G'Quan for the first time in a very long time. I'm not saying that it got castrated or anything, but if anyone sees something rolling around could my G'Quan have them back please?

I think I have them: the Weak secondaries right hand one or the 3AD beam left hand one?

That the G'Quan is too weak has often been a complaint.

The G'Quan has actually grown in leaps and bounds from the 2AD beam in the first printing, to the 3AD beam and variable energy mine loads, to the 4AD beam and non-weak secondaries.

Unfortunately, its nearest rivals have grown just as fast, if not faster. The Omega has gained 6AD beam and 4AD to the rear. The Primus has gotten more robust. And 8" range secondaries are no longer a common standard range, in fact they look quite paltry.

 

[David Anla Shok']

I Guess The dancing White star Carrier (Dodged 60% of the hits) made up for it.

Yes. JoBoo kept you alive so that your failure and shame would be complete.

 

[dag'karlove]

Actually If I remember correctly and I do I won the game Joe Boo saw to that too.

 

[Banichi]

Please don't flame me, as I duck for cover, but what about going back to the first edition Beam Rules? There seems to be more discussion about 2E Beams than 1E.

At least the run away dice would only happen on a 6.

Just a thought, as I hide in a bunker in a unknown location!

Totally agree dude, I had no problem with the way the old ap asp beams worked. Ok if you were in a hull 4 ship life was hard (but not for long), but the way that the number needed to hit cycled up did make silly, run away beam hits much harder to get, And that seems to be the main beef people have with the new rules

I would quite happily revert back to the old beam rules. Personally I think that they had a better feel to them than the 2e ones. If they made life hard (or short) for hull 4 ship, well, thats what tends to happen to things that are lightly armoured on battlefields with lots of heavy weapons.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Actually If I remember correctly and I do I won the game Joe Boo saw to that too.

No. It was a three way game. Since you weren't hitting anything, it was like you weren't there. Last man standing is a sort of victory I guess....