Space Combat - Did I miss something?

[shirgall]

I take this to mean that the systems installed in turret can only perform one thing in a round. If multiple types of systems are present in a turret, pick one for the round.

The Gunner is limited to operating only one thing--the turret and its contents--each Space Combat Round, and can only bring that turret to bear on a target and manage one type of firing solution, and therefore type of weapon that same round, so your interpretation is correct.

The way I handle dogfights is that while changing position is a minor action, anything significantly more than that is a Significant Action. Changing the type of weapon and selecting a new firing solution method is a Significant Action in my interpretation and therefore between firing that laser and firing that sandcaster is one round of switching.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I take this to mean that the systems installed in turret can only perform one thing in a round. If multiple types of systems are present in a turret, pick one for the round.

Am I misunderstanding this? Thank you

I believe you are correct.

I missed that change from Core'20, already in Core'22:

Core'20, p158:
Double and Triple Turrets
Some spacecraft are fitted with double or triple turrets, which allow two or three weapons to be mounted in the same turret. If these weapons are different (a pulse laser, missile rack and sandcaster in the same triple turret, for example), then only one type may be used to attack an enemy in a combat round.

Core'22, p168:
DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TURRETS
Some spacecraft are fitted with double or triple turrets, which allow two or three weapons to be mounted in the same turret. If these weapons are different (a pulse laser, missile rack and sandcaster in the same triple turret, for example), then only one type may be used in a single combat round.

So, this is wrong:

So, if you have a triple turret with a Particle beam, a laser, and a sandcaster, you can attack with the particle (once), PD with the laser (once), and Disperse Sand with the sandcaster (up to 20 times).

You can only use one of the mounted weapons, so either attack, PD, or Disperse Sand.
Disperse Sand can still be made several times, against both lasers and boarders, as long as ammunition lasts.

Thank you for catching my mistake.

 

[Endie]

The discussion on sandcasters strikes me that I've never considered this, but that it will arise in one of my games in the coming weeks: when a ship has multiple turrets with a sandcaster present, can multiple turrets disperse sand against a single hostile attack?

So our heroic players in the HMS Angelic confront the wicked heavy corvette Deathskull. Deathskull has a small pulse laser bay, as per JTAS and elsewhere. The Deathskull attacks, and hits, doing 14 points of damage. Given the ten times multiplier, and the fact that the HMS Angelic has only 4 points of armour and 88 hull points, things look bad. The pilot squandered all her thrust points on closing range so no help avoiding the attack.

However, the HMS Angelic has two ace gunners with a sandcaster in each turret.

One gunner launches sand, rolls a 7 plus skill and stat of 3, for an effect of two. They then roll four for the sandcaster and so add six in total to the armour, making a total of ten armour. Now the laser bay is "only" doing 4x10 = forty points of damage after armour.

Can the second gunner also react to the same attack, further increasing the armour? I checked the Core rulebook and expected to find "only one turret gunner can use the disperse sand action against any attack" but didn't. So can they double down? It seems kinda reasonable to do so, narratively, especially as you are cutting your own attacks by at least two, but I can't find a specific ruling.

More controversially, three good gunners with sand probably negate a 30MCr Large Pulse Laser Bay weapon (JTAS 7 p.16), for instance.

 

[Arkathan]

The discussion on sandcasters strikes me that I've never considered this, but that it will arise in one of my games in the coming weeks: when a ship has multiple turrets with a sandcaster present, can multiple turrets disperse sand against a single hostile attack?

So our heroic players in the HMS Angelic confront the wicked heavy corvette Deathskull. Deathskull has a small pulse laser bay, as per JTAS and elsewhere. The Deathskull attacks, and hits, doing 14 points of damage. Given the ten times multiplier, and the fact that the HMS Angelic has only 4 points of armour and 88 hull points, things look bad. The pilot squandered all her thrust points on closing range so no help avoiding the attack.

However, the HMS Angelic has two ace gunners with a sandcaster in each turret.

One gunner launches sand, rolls a 7 plus skill and stat of 3, for an effect of two. They then roll four for the sandcaster and so add six in total to the armour, making a total of ten armour. Now the laser bay is "only" doing 4x10 = forty points of damage after armour.

Can the second gunner also react to the same attack, further increasing the armour? I checked the Core rulebook and expected to find "only one turret gunner can use the disperse sand action against any attack" but didn't. So can they double down? It seems kinda reasonable to do so, narratively, especially as you are cutting your own attacks by at least two, but I can't find a specific ruling.

More controversially, three good gunners with sand probably negate a 30MCr Large Pulse Laser Bay weapon (JTAS 7 p.16), for instance.

Screens can double up, so until a PTB squashes it, there is no good reason that two gunners cannot block the same attack with sandcasters.
Stacking meson shields is the only way to defeat an attack from meson weapons. For balance purposes, the laser bay is not going to run out of photons before the sandcasters are going to run out of sand.

 

[hopsnbaer]

The discussion on sandcasters strikes me that I've never considered this, but that it will arise in one of my games in the coming weeks: when a ship has multiple turrets with a sandcaster present, can multiple turrets disperse sand against a single hostile attack?

So our heroic players in the HMS Angelic confront the wicked heavy corvette Deathskull. Deathskull has a small pulse laser bay, as per JTAS and elsewhere. The Deathskull attacks, and hits, doing 14 points of damage. Given the ten times multiplier, and the fact that the HMS Angelic has only 4 points of armour and 88 hull points, things look bad. The pilot squandered all her thrust points on closing range so no help avoiding the attack.

However, the HMS Angelic has two ace gunners with a sandcaster in each turret.

One gunner launches sand, rolls a 7 plus skill and stat of 3, for an effect of two. They then roll four for the sandcaster and so add six in total to the armour, making a total of ten armour. Now the laser bay is "only" doing 4x10 = forty points of damage after armour.

Can the second gunner also react to the same attack, further increasing the armour? I checked the Core rulebook and expected to find "only one turret gunner can use the disperse sand action against any attack" but didn't. So can they double down? It seems kinda reasonable to do so, narratively, especially as you are cutting your own attacks by at least two, but I can't find a specific ruling.

More controversially, three good gunners with sand probably negate a 30MCr Large Pulse Laser Bay weapon (JTAS 7 p.16), for instance.

I don't see a reason why not. It would work both ways for players and opposition.

 

[Condottiere]

We used to link turrets into batteries.

Technically, it would be a salvo.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The discussion on sandcasters strikes me that I've never considered this, but that it will arise in one of my games in the coming weeks: when a ship has multiple turrets with a sandcaster present, can multiple turrets disperse sand against a single hostile attack?

I agree with the previous posts: there is no such limitation in the rules.
Several laser turrets can PD the same salvo, and the limitations are clearly explained in the PD reaction.
The Disperse Sand reaction has no such limitation, it is only limited by available ammo.

Core'22, p171:
DISPERSE SAND (GUNNER)
While cheap and versatile, laser weapons are easily foiled by dispersed particles or sand as it is often called. Sandcasters are designed to create temporary defences against incoming laser attacks.

Using a turret-mounted sandcaster, a gunner can attempt to block laser attacks. The gunner must succeed at a Gunner (turret) check against a laser weapon and, if successful, will add 1D plus the Effect of the check to the ship’s armour against that laser attack only. Each Disperse Sand reaction uses one canister of sand.

Compare with:

Core'22, p171:
POINT DEFENCE (GUNNER)
Using a turret-mounted laser (beam or pulse), a gunner can destroy incoming missiles. Note that a weapon used for point defence cannot be used to make attacks in the same combat round and vice versa. Point Defence may only be performed against missile salvos (see page 172) as they are about to make their attack roll against a target – missiles are too small and too fast to be targeted at greater ranges. A gunner may only attempt Point Defence once every round.

HG'22, p41:
ANGLE SCREENS (GUNNER)
Using a screen, a gunner can attempt to deflect or reduce damage from incoming attacks. The gunner must succeed at a Gunner (screen) check against an attack and, if successful, reduces the damage of the attack – after armour has been accounted for – by the number of dice rolled by the screen (as noted in its description), multiplied by the Effect of the gunner’s check.

A gunner may use any number of screens against a single attack, combining their dice (but only multiplying the result by the Effect once). A gunner may only attempt to Angle Screens once per round and each screen can only be used once.

The limitations are clearly spelled out.
Disperse Sand has no such limitations.

Can the second gunner also react to the same attack, further increasing the armour? I checked the Core rulebook and expected to find "only one turret gunner can use the disperse sand action against any attack" but didn't. So can they double down? It seems kinda reasonable to do so, narratively, especially as you are cutting your own attacks by at least two, but I can't find a specific ruling.

I believe that not only can they double down, they can disperse sand several times per round.
You can disperse sand against the attack four times, six times, or as many times as needed...
The limitation is the ammo.

Even worse, Disperse Sand does not require the attack to be against the reacting ship, it might be another ship that is attacked.

Some house-ruling might be called for...

More controversially, three good gunners with sand probably negate a 30MCr Large Pulse Laser Bay weapon (JTAS 7 p.16), for instance.

Yes, until they run out of ammo...
Enough laser attacks will overwhelm any sandcasters.

 

[Galen]

I would say that three canisters are used, which would provide greatrer density of sand thus the extra protection.

I am happy about having 20 sand canisters in a mixed use turret e.g. laser + sandcaster. What would you say about mixed missile and sandcaster turrets? I would be inclined to reduce the capacity as 12 missiles = 20 canisters = 1dT. Having 12 missiles and 20 canisters in the same space seems too much for me.

OK I totally give you that! If you have a Railgun, a Missile Rack and a Sandcaster in a Turret you would have 3 tonnes of ammo for free in a Turret that uses just 1t (if not hidden)

Of course, the rules say "per Attack" but we also have Core '22 Rule Zero. I have to think we (me and my group) have to discuss how to use that for us and adapt a house rule for it.

 

[Condottiere]

Try that with a quad turret, plus gunner workstation.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I believe that not only can they double down, they can disperse sand several times per round.
You can disperse sand against the attack four times, six times, or as many times as needed...
The limitation is the ammo.

I believe this is incorrect. The Core Rules (Update p 75) are unclear, but the implication seems to be that a Traveller gets one reaction to each different incoming attack action. A specific number of attacks provokes up to a maximum of that same number of reactions, maximum of one per attack.

Under 'Attack'; emphasis mine; note the singular:

ATTACK
The most common Significant Action used in combat is
to attack. An attack is an attempt to damage or injure
an enemy with either a melee or ranged weapon, such
as a knife or a rifle.
The Traveller declares they are going to attack and
selects a target. The target may then choose a
Reaction.

Several different sandcaster turrets (or barbettes, or bays, or -- heaven forfend the eventuality of such rules being published -- spinal sandcasters) may each react against the same incoming attack, but each only gets to react to that single attack a single time. An even less charitable reading (which I do not support, but just noticed) is that the defending ship ('target') only gets to choose a single reaction per attack -- so one incoming laser attack = a maximum of exactly one reaction (from only a single turret, etc).

Of course, everyone runs their own table as they see fit.

[Edit:] Also, it seems like two sandcasters are more effective if they are mounted in separate turrets. A Dual-Sandcaster turret seems to reduce incoming damage by (1d6 + Effect+1); two turrets (A & B) each with a single sandcaster reduces an incoming attack by (1d6 + EffectA) & (1d6 + EffectB). [/Edit]

 

[Ol'Weedy]

A triple sandcaster turret used to Disperse Sand will prevent more damage, but still only use one canister

One canister per sandcaster...so 3 canisters used.
I get the rule is worded in a way that would seem otherwise, but it's pretty obvious what the intention of the rule was.

 

[hopsnbaer]

I believe this is incorrect. The Core Rules (Update p 75) are unclear, but the implication seems to be that a Traveller gets one reaction to each different incoming attack action. A specific number of attacks provokes up to a maximum of that same number of reactions, maximum of one per attack.

Under 'Attack'; emphasis mine; note the singular:


Several different sandcaster turrets (or barbettes, or bays, or -- heaven forfend the eventuality of such rules being published -- spinal sandcasters) may each react against the same incoming attack, but each only gets to react to that single attack a single time. An even less charitable reading (which I do not support, but just noticed) is that the defending ship ('target') only gets to choose a single reaction per attack -- so one incoming laser attack = a maximum of exactly one reaction (from only a single turret, etc).

Of course, everyone runs their own table as they see fit.

[Edit:] Also, it seems like two sandcasters are more effective if they are mounted in separate turrets. A Dual-Sandcaster turret seems to reduce incoming damage by (1d6 + Effect+1); two turrets (A & B) each with a single sandcaster reduces an incoming attack by (1d6 + EffectA) & (1d6 + EffectB). [/Edit]

You could probably allow a single sophont operating more than one turret the -2 DM for multiple actions, and a reaction per turret with the -1 penalty for each additional reaction.

Each turret should not get more than one reaction though against the same attack.

Since the turns are 6 minutes it might be fair to allow another reaction with the penalties to a second or more attacks as they are probably not timed at the same instant.

I would also say a triple turreted Sandcaster would use three cans of ammo.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

Since you can only use one type of weapon system in a turret, per six minutes, which might mean you're stuck with the same choice for sixty dogfight rounds.

Interpretations of a 6 minute round like this never made any sense to me. I think the nature of stellar scale combat makes it more likely you are doing a lot more than just lining up one shot per 6 minutes. I envision even a simple attack with a single laser at range, to be more like several attempts to saturate any possible target locations based on very limited targeting information. The attack roll is just to see if any of those (literally) shots in the dark are successful.
It's not like you are looking through your sights at the target; you're reading sensor data at beyond visible range, showing a target that won't be were it was when your shot arrives. Keep in mind that medium range starts at a distance equal to 4 times the distance between New York and Boston, or 4.5 times the distance between Leeds and London. Long range starts just a little less than the distance between New York and Tokyo.

 

[hopsnbaer]

Interpretations of a 6 minute round like this never made any sense to me. I think the nature of stellar scale combat makes it more likely you are doing a lot more than just lining up one shot per 6 minutes. I envision even a simple attack with a single laser at range, to be more like several attempts to saturate any possible target locations based on very limited targeting information. The attack roll is just to see if any of those (literally) shots in the dark are successful.
It's not like you are looking through your sights at the target; you're reading sensor data at beyond visible range, showing a target that won't be were it was when your shot arrives. Keep in mind that medium range starts at a distance equal to 4 times the distance between New York and Boston, or 4.5 times the distance between Leeds and London. Long range starts just a little less than the distance between New York and Tokyo.

IMO the rules are not made to be a sim. Dogfight rules would take precedence over full combat turns so the rapid pace of the dogfight would allow you to work the weapon in the regular six second rounds.

It's supposed to simulate action for the story, not bog you down.

 

[Condottiere]

You'd have to add in the option to switch.

Probably have to figure out on your own, how many six second actions that took.

 

[hopsnbaer]

You'd have to add in the option to switch.

Probably have to figure out on your own, how many six second actions that took.

At the beginning of any combat round, you can decide if you're in Dog Fight mode or Space Combat Mode. Not sure it requires a time, but yeah, it could be tricky doing both. Probably doesn't need to be overthought and just decide if you're in one or the other for the entire 6 minutes.

It hasn't really come up for me, so I would probably need to play it out to see.

 

[tytalan]

Another interesting thing that can affect things is the fact that at TL 11 you can have a sandcaster with High Yield (2-6 + effect) and at TL 13 Very High Yield (3-6 + effect) this increases its uses a lot. When you consider the limited number of turrets in many ships and the fact you can only use one system per turn having a Free Trader with Dual Sandcasters (2-7 + effect/ 3-7 + effect/ 4-7 + effect) and a Dual beam laser makes a lot of sense. If fact IMTU it’s probably the most common weapon combination for Free and Fartraders (though triple turrets of the same type are probably the second most common) but than IMTU merchants ship armed with anything other than lasers and sandcasters are considered suspicious and if armed with missiles or torpedos are actively harassed for being a potential threat.

As far as ammo goes for mixed turrets I’d divide the ammo evenly by type so if you have both missiles and sandcasters you have 6 missiles and 10 canisters, rail gun and missiles 6each, rail gun & sand casters 6/10, all three 3/3/6 I round down in this case because of the needed extra loading systems.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I believe this is incorrect. The Core Rules (Update p 75) are unclear, but the implication seems to be that a Traveller gets one reaction to each different incoming attack action. A specific number of attacks provokes up to a maximum of that same number of reactions, maximum of one per attack.

You might be right; it would certainly be a better interpretation.

But, "the target" here is the ship, and the ship can take several reactions to an attack, e.g. several PD reactions and/or Evasive action.

That each person would only be able to react once to each attack isn't exactly spelled out clearly...
Evasive action, PD, and Angle Screen do contain limitations as to how often they may be used, unlike Disperse Sand.

[Edit:] Also, it seems like two sandcasters are more effective if they are mounted in separate turrets. A Dual-Sandcaster turret seems to reduce incoming damage by (1d6 + Effect+1); two turrets (A & B) each with a single sandcaster reduces an incoming attack by (1d6 + EffectA) & (1d6 + EffectB). [/Edit]

Of course, just like lasers. But that takes two hardpoints, two turrets, and two gunners.

Mixed turrets are not generally a good idea as:

Core'22, p168:
DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TURRETS
Some spacecraft are fitted with double or triple turrets, which allow two or three weapons to be mounted in the same turret. If these weapons are different (a pulse laser, missile rack and sandcaster in the same triple turret, for example), then only one type may be used in a single combat round.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

One canister per sandcaster...so 3 canisters used.
I get the rule is worded in a way that would seem otherwise, but it's pretty obvious what the intention of the rule was.

Possibly, but that is not what the rule actually says:

Core'22, p171:
Each Disperse Sand reaction uses one canister of sand.

 

[swordtart]

I believe this is incorrect. The Core Rules (Update p 75) are unclear, but the implication seems to be that a Traveller gets one reaction to each different incoming attack action. A specific number of attacks provokes up to a maximum of that same number of reactions, maximum of one per attack.

Under 'Attack'; emphasis mine; note the singular:


Several different sandcaster turrets (or barbettes, or bays, or -- heaven forfend the eventuality of such rules being published -- spinal sandcasters) may each react against the same incoming attack, but each only gets to react to that single attack a single time.

I agree with all of the above as allowing multiple reactions to a single attack from the same defender is cheesy and illogical.

An even less charitable reading (which I do not support, but just noticed) is that the defending ship ('target') only gets to choose a single reaction per attack -- so one incoming laser attack = a maximum of exactly one reaction (from only a single turret, etc).

I don't think the less charitable reading is supported. The Reactions paragraph in Space Combat (CRB22 p117) speaks of Travellers performing reactions not ships. In this case it seems clear that the pilot can try to dodge while the gunners disperse sand against the same attack. I see no contradiction in allowing multiple gunners operating multiple turrets with sand casters to defend against each laser hit should they so desire. They are both going to be taking a -1 on subsequent actions so there is a cost being paid.

Of course, everyone runs their own table as they see fit.

[Edit:] Also, it seems like two sandcasters are more effective if they are mounted in separate turrets. A Dual-Sandcaster turret seems to reduce incoming damage by (1d6 + Effect+1); two turrets (A & B) each with a single sandcaster reduces an incoming attack by (1d6 + EffectA) & (1d6 + EffectB). [/Edit]

This last point is absolutely true, the cost of course is that any turrets dispersing sand can't operate offensively and small ships don't get many turrets. If you are able to run effectively this might keep you alive long enough, but otherwise you are just delaying the inevitable if you are not hurting your enemy.

Given that additional sand casters in a turret only provide +1, I might be inclined to stick with the 1 canister per reaction per RAW (maybe the multiple sand casters in the same turret just disperse the same amount of sand more efficiently). If this were the case then putting the extra sand caster in another turret instead would mean you use more than one canister as now there are two reactions to the same attack each using a canister.