Samcollins
Mongoose
I believe aiming and auto fire do not mix well. Auto fire involves multiple attacks sometimes at multiple targets within 6 meters. Or, do the rules suggest that only first attack would get the aim bonus? Please clarify.
Aiming and auto fire
- Thread starter Samcollins
- Start date
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
The rules already say you cannot use Full Auto with the Scope trait. I think it is reasonble to say that it cannot be used with Full Auto.
Alternately, it can only be used for the FIRST attack. All other attacks from the Full Auto do not gain that bonus.
Alternately, it can only be used for the FIRST attack. All other attacks from the Full Auto do not gain that bonus.
Samcollins
Mongoose
I think it would be best to aid no aiming bonuses when using full auto. Seems cleaner. That's what I would suggest. Aiming bonuses with burst fire should still be ok
Samcollins said:
I would be happy with this - any violent protests against?
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
msprange said:
Not violent, but shouldn't it be possible to aim carefully and then unleash full auto instead of a single shot? The first few shots (I.e the first attack, rules-wise) would hit more or less where the shooter aims, accurately and all, but soon the bullets will spread too much (2nd and possible further attack do not get aiming bonus).
If aiming bonus for burst is in, then it should be there for the first attack of a full autofire too, IMHO.
Samcollins
Mongoose
Annotars idea is fine too. I'm running it as no aim bonus to auto because it's a nice clean rule, and in the spirit of "spray n' pray".
I do like that recoil penalties have been removed.
I do like that recoil penalties have been removed.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
I get the "realistic" feel this suggestion is going for, but this is a great example of how one situation should not add a level of complexity to the game. Overall use of full auto is to fill an area with fire not careful aim hyped up. So to keep the game cleaner I think going with Burst can aim but Full Auto is just full auto makes a lot more sense.Annatar Giftbringer said:
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Agreed.
I think if a Traveller wants to say that they are taking careful aim before using Autofire, as the Referee, I might give them a Boon for that first to hit roll.
That keeps the rules simple and lets the Referee control the specific situations.
Honestly, I haven't played in many games where a Traveller tried to use the Aim option with Full Auto.
I think if a Traveller wants to say that they are taking careful aim before using Autofire, as the Referee, I might give them a Boon for that first to hit roll.
That keeps the rules simple and lets the Referee control the specific situations.
Honestly, I haven't played in many games where a Traveller tried to use the Aim option with Full Auto.
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
A boon for he first attack would work too, yes.
When I think more about it, I realize that I mostly think of "FPS distances" when imagining combat... Perhaps there should even became kind of difference between close combat (up to 10-15 m) and long range, akin to in space combat? Perhaps too fiddly, just a thought...
I mean, at short range more bullets should hit where it hurts, so both autofire and bursts could have different effect compared to against a target 50 or even 100 meters away...
Something along the lines of "using autofire at up to 12 m distance halves the ammo requirements, and bursts double their bonus damage"...
EDIT: or burst/full auto could yield additional to hit-bonus at short range, beyond the standard +1 DM. Is +1 per attack/auto rating too much? A weapon with auto 4 (which is to b changed to auto 2 if I'm not mistaken) would get +3 to hit while bursting at short range
When I think more about it, I realize that I mostly think of "FPS distances" when imagining combat... Perhaps there should even became kind of difference between close combat (up to 10-15 m) and long range, akin to in space combat? Perhaps too fiddly, just a thought...
I mean, at short range more bullets should hit where it hurts, so both autofire and bursts could have different effect compared to against a target 50 or even 100 meters away...
Something along the lines of "using autofire at up to 12 m distance halves the ammo requirements, and bursts double their bonus damage"...
EDIT: or burst/full auto could yield additional to hit-bonus at short range, beyond the standard +1 DM. Is +1 per attack/auto rating too much? A weapon with auto 4 (which is to b changed to auto 2 if I'm not mistaken) would get +3 to hit while bursting at short range
Melbourne Accords
Banded Mongoose
Our groups don't combine the aim bonus with full autofire.
So, none of y'all have ever walked a long burst onto target then?
Y'all know both Autofire and it's younger sibling Burst fire where invented to increase the likelihood of a Hit.
I like the rules in 1st edition, but dropped the whole limited to skill-1 bs, in that it was contrary to actually how things worked.
Also If Burst fire give extra damage why doesn't autofire? (that never made sense in Game logic either)
Y'all know both Autofire and it's younger sibling Burst fire where invented to increase the likelihood of a Hit.
I like the rules in 1st edition, but dropped the whole limited to skill-1 bs, in that it was contrary to actually how things worked.
Also If Burst fire give extra damage why doesn't autofire? (that never made sense in Game logic either)
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
But does that not use up some of the "rounds" in that autofire thus lowering the chance to hit other targets?Infojunky said:
Really? I thought Autofire was invented to allow better area saturation. I also thought that bursts were invented when they realized how many rounds were being burned vs targets hit. Thus the "burst" was created to allow more than one round heading toward a target while maintaining greater control of the weapon. I never new Autofire was invented to increase target hit rates. Interesting what I learn on this site. Too bad Autofire failed in its original task then.Infojunky said:
-Daniel- said:
Multiple Targets?!? When walking fire onto a target? doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of walking fire onto target? Now if your target is a squad of infantry....
-Daniel- said:
Yes.... See you get it....
-Daniel- said:
Yep. As it was explained to me when the Marines got their new rifles, we where still using m-14s at that point....
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
Ok, maybe I am misunderstanding, are you not saying Autofire should get additional to hit, to damage, and still keep the multi target capability?Infojunky said:
Or are you saying I need to pick on or the other when I use auto fire? So if I want to keep in on a single target than I should get additional damage and to hit but if I use the Autofire rule to target three people, it stays as is?
I have the feeling I might be misunderstanding what you are asking for.
-Daniel- said:
1st a Mea Culpa, this wasn't a good morning for me, everyone was wandering through my office and want a piece of me while I am cruising and responding to posts, thus they are crasser and more fragmentary than intended....
What I was trying to say is that I prefer the 1st edition Auto-fire rules as a dice pool, thus various auto-fire modes can be used without express different mechanics. Case in point Walking fire onto a target, the best dice are used for that hit. I could never understand nor used the skill level one limit. Though I have not worked out a satisfying suppression fire mechanic that wasn't a direct rip off of another game (Using the one from Savage worlds kinda). Note I do limit aiming on Full-Auto shots though....
Further more the Burst-fir mechanism is kinda backwards in my opinion as well as fragmentary, in that a burst adds damage only, unless it is a 3 round burst where it adds a +1 to-hit. My current fix for this Burst fire gets to ad a Boon Die, and with such it works like the Auto-fire dice pool. And allow aiming...
As for extra damage, I figure that anything that increases your chance to hit will also increase the effect of that roll, thus adding to damage as well....
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
It's all good. :mrgreen:Infojunky said:
I understand. The dice pool was a nice way to deal with the situation. And I agree, it allowed the use on the core mechanic regardless of what setting I used.Infojunky said:
For me, suppression is one of those things that I see players ignore all the time. It is a normal human response to a heavy stream of bullets flying over head to hunker down, not stand up to return fire. 8)Infojunky said:
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