Advanced Jump Point as weapon: possible fix?

[Silvereye]

I have posted some comments that may also apply to this thread, on the other very similarly named and themed thread here.

 

[Garibaldi]

LBH,

I fess up when I'm wrong also...I just happen to think that I'm correct.
It looks to me (at this moment in time) that this argument is not going to be
resolved any time soon. So, I will keep on beliving that I'm right and that the
rest of you need to come to my way of thinking.

Then again, my Vree telepathy interpitation was just shot out of the sky by
Mr. M. Sprang...so what the heck do I know?! :?

 

[Howarth]

I have a better idea

What I need is some leather, paints, a mirror, a large bed, the best painter in the world and someone with no moral values

 

[Howarth]

Then again, my Vree telepathy interpitation was just shot out of the sky by
Mr. M. Sprang...so what the heck do I know?!

Shoot him down as well

Its only polite to return the favor
Try a 12 bore it tends to do the trick

 

[lastbesthope]

Shoot him down as well

Inadvisable, he is an evil genius after all!

Msprange, you seem to be right, I mentioned Rickman first on the forums, but I'm sure it's because I picked it up from one of your loyal employees at the Feb tourney, because I posted it the day after

BTW< did anyone else notice that the two Mongoose ACTA Tourneys were exactly 9 months aprt? Spooky!

LBH

 

[Pigeon Smythe]

why not change the advance jump point rule slightly.

If you made it that the advance jump point system on board a ship has a safety feature preventing opening too close to the enemy then you can prevent intentional jump sniping.

Change the rule for AJP so that you cannot open a jump gate within 4" of an enemy vessel, or if you want to you have to scatter the gate as normal as the advance jump system has to overridden and a manual gate has to be opened.

This would mean there was still a chance of jump gate damage as was seen in tv show, but you would have to get lucky to open it on your enemy.

The advanced ship should still be able to fire and issue orders on its turn of entry though.

I think this rule would work.

At the moment I have stopped using my AJP fleets - ive retired my Minbari as I don't think its a fair tactic to use, its too easy to kill small ships with a Torotha before you even start shooting.

 

[B5freak]

Just picked up this thread (surfing while I wait on a client to call for a telecon). The AJP bomb is somewhat rediculous. Have you considered the implications of using the Torotha or Vorlon Transports? These are Skirmish level ships that, thanks to the AJP rule, have a full-arc-effect, 4" ranged, 6AD, Triple Damage weapon that goes off in the Movement phase and ignores Stealth and Interceptors (don't remember about Dodge).

Granted, it can only be used once per game, but these ships can basically clear the table of Patrol or Skirmish level ships. I don't have the rule book handy, but something's also telling me aux craft are hosed as well. To make matters worse, the AJP ships get to come out of this zone of death with their guns a'blazing.

Even if you do think this is an ok tactic and that the AJP's use as a weapon was intentional, you have to wonder if this means these ships should be under-gunned in any scenario that doesn't let them jump in. If a White Star isn't allowed to jump in, do you consider it underpowered for a Raid choice? If not, then letting them use their AJP as a weapon when they can jump in is the equivalent of overpowering them in scenarios where they start in Hyperspace.

For every non-AJP fleet, deploying ships from hyperspace is a double-edged sword. They have a chance of getting a better position, but at the cost of two lost turns (one to open the jump point and one to come through and sit there). By comparison, there is no drawback for AJP fleets. If these fleets are to remain balanced, then they either need their firepower reduced to account for the offensive advantages of the AJP bomb, or the AJP rules need to be modified to provide a drawback that counter-balances the advantages of the current AJP.

 

[Silvereye]

Just picked up this thread (surfing while I wait on a client to call for a telecon). The AJP bomb is somewhat rediculous. Have you considered the implications of using the Torotha or Vorlon Transports? These are Skirmish level ships that, thanks to the AJP rule, have a full-arc-effect, 4" ranged, 6AD, Triple Damage weapon that goes off in the Movement phase and ignores Stealth and Interceptors (don't remember about Dodge).

Yes, yes I have. At least with the Torotha anyway. Have you ever used these ships? They really need every advantage they can get to make you actually think they are worth taking at any level above Skirmish. They are way too fragile, one decent hit, or a couple of lesser ones and they tend to be toast. It is not helped that their main weapons are 6" range. Treat them as overly large fighters, and expect them to last about as long, at least if you have to fly them across the field.

 

[Chernobyl]

IIRC it takes 3 turns for the jump engines to recharge...so if your game (and the ship) lasts long enough you could do it more than once couldn't you?

Chern

 

[lastbesthope]

For every non-AJP fleet, deploying ships from hyperspace is a double-edged sword. They have a chance of getting a better position, but at the cost of two lost turns (one to open the jump point and one to come through and sit there). By comparison, there is no drawback for AJP fleets.

AJp still has to wait till Turn 2 to fire, not as much of a disadvantage as the staandard JP trait, but still a disadvantage. They do have the non deviation bonus as well though.

IIRC it takes 3 turns for the jump engines to recharge...so if your game (and the ship) lasts long enough you could do it more than once couldn't you?

Chern

ONLYif the ship opening the JP remains in hyperspace, I'm not sure about that though, the rules don't state that you have to ocme thorugh the JP, hough it is implied.

LBH

 

[Pauly_D]

AJp still has to wait till Turn 2 to fire, not as much of a disadvantage as the staandard JP trait, but still a disadvantage. They do have the non deviation bonus as well though.

fine they get that slight disadvantage BUT they still get their 6AD triple damage attack from the Jump Point forming tho, and the Non deviate bonus is so useful, normal JP's rarely hit ships with the 6AD triple damage attack because it deviates too far, and its an extra turn of not shooting

 

[lastbesthope]

That's why the A stands for Advanced :lol:

I know what you mean though.

LBH

 

[B5freak]

Why would they have to wait 2 turns? Turn 1 open jump gate and whack some poor little ship, turn 2 come through and start shooting (ships with AJP may act normally in the turn they come out of hyperspace).

 

[Tal Hawkins]

Easy solution that fits the one show example. To use AJP you must jump into real space within 6" of one of your own ships that is acting as a beacon for you. If that ship is destroyed or no allied ship is within 6" then your AJP ability converts to standard JP for that jump.

 

[Chernobyl]

Chernobyl wrote:

IIRC it takes 3 turns for the jump engines to recharge...so if your game (and the ship) lasts long enough you could do it more than once couldn't you?

Chern

ONLYif the ship opening the JP remains in hyperspace, I'm not sure about that though, the rules don't state that you have to ocme thorugh the JP, hough it is implied.

looking at the original book 1-rules, p. 18, jump points, end of 1st paragraph...
"Once a jump counter has been removed, the ship that created it may not initiate another for at least 3 turns as its jump engines have to recharge."

now the part about causing damage only occurs when a jump point from hyperspace to realspace is opened, but in "A Call to Arms" we see the reverse happen as well, the small drakh ships are smashed by the victory class ships opening jump points to hyperspace.

Chernobyl

 

[emperorpenguin]

now the part about causing damage only occurs when a jump point from hyperspace to realspace is opened, but in "A Call to Arms" we see the reverse happen as well, the small drakh ships are smashed by the victory class ships opening jump points to hyperspace.

Chernobyl

no what you see is the Drakh ships attempting to give chase into hyperspace not being quick enough and getting caught as the jump point closes.
Sinclair warns Ivanova not to chase the Raider strike carrier in "Signs and Portents" for the same reason "you might get caught in the backwash"

 

[Pirate PB]

I understand the "it was used in the series" argument and I understand the desire to make the game a copy of what we watched, but I can't help thinking this is one of those rules that should just be consigned to the rubbish heap as flawed from a game play perspective. Just ditch the damage caused by opening a jump point on a ship. The real advantage to be gained from AJP should be the positional aspect and the firing on turn of entry. It potentially becomes a real game breaker otherwise.

Oh and hi to everyone on the forums (first post)

 

[B5freak]

Why not just say that if you're caught "under the template" when the point either opens or closes you take damage? Gets rid of that whopping 4" area of effect while maintaining what we see in the series.

Combine that with something that says AJP's deviate 1d6 inches instead of the normal 2d6, but may be placed anywhere within 4" of a friendly ship or aux craft already on the table with no deviation, and we've got something that matches what's seen in the show and gives AJP ships an advantage in placement (in addition to the already phenomenal advantage of being able to act normally in the turn they emerge from Hyperspace), while removing the AJP bomb as a commonplace tactic.

 

[Balance]

I understand the "it was used in the series" argument and I understand the desire to make the game a copy of what we watched, but I can't help thinking this is one of those rules that should just be consigned to the rubbish heap as flawed from a game play perspective. Just ditch the damage caused by opening a jump point on a ship. The real advantage to be gained from AJP should be the positional aspect and the firing on turn of entry. It potentially becomes a real game breaker otherwise.

Actually, a lot have argued that there's scant evidence for Jump points being used offensively. Thats one reason i've argued it should be treated almost like a ram, at least requiring a CQ check as it must have some drawback for the ship opening the point, or it'd be used as often as possible.

Dropping the template makes sense, too.

Oh and hi to everyone on the forums (first post)

Greetings! Don't mind Howarth, he's off in his own plane of existence talking to Vorlons.

 

[Pirate PB]

Thanks or the heads up!