How do screens actually work?

wingsday

Banded Mongoose
How you're supposed to apply screens in the fleet combat rules is really unclear I think. as far as I can tell, except for the part where you assemble your screen defence pool, no explanation is given. Perhaps the most raw reading is that you should take the base damage and go through the whole damage determining process:
Sutract defensive dm from offensive (implied by example)
Add result to base damage
Subtract armor
Multiply by damage multiple
Multiply by weapon count
Then the attack effectiveness process:
Add up situation dms
Table lookup
Multiply determined damage
Apply damage
then perhaps you apply screen defence?
it could instead be in between the two processes but I think that doesn't make a lot of sense
either way, both of these methods render screens very weak and the cannon ships don't make a lot of sense, you might expect a single large meson bay to take just over 10 screens to block entirely.
I think this scheme is kind of ridiculous and doesn't really jive with the cannon ships, you might expect a 10kt ship with 6 large meson bays to basically dismantle a tigress, over a few turns but basically unopposed.

the other relatively RAW interpretation is to lean on the non-fleet damage sequence to fill in the gaps, this would place screen reductions in the middle of the damage determining process, after subtracting armor but before multiplying by the damage multiplier. This has sort of the opposite effect, where you would expect a single screen to block an entire meson spinal up to factor 9, and any number of meson bays from a single ship/squadron. This essentially turns meson guns into nerf guns, your spinal mount is being block by something that is 0.015% of it's size. I think this also doesn't really jive with the cannon ships because they equip meson guns in the face of this

I can only conclude that this was an oversight, the thing that I think actually works reasonably is to lift the weapon count multiplier step to after the armor step, and place screen reductions after that, this leads to a single screen blocking about 11 small bays, 9 medium or large bays, or, again 9 factors of spinal mount, this works well for bays but still means spinals are just not worth using, the fix for this is that you could require the factor number screen defense points to neutralize a damage point from spinals, so a factor 1 spinal would take 6 screen points to block entirely, while a F2 would take 24, a F9 486, F12 864. This yields spinals that are really quite threatening, at least at large sizes, I suppose all the ships equiped with F1 meson spinals remain kind of SoL in this case, but that would not be the only very strange design choice in these ships.
 
Meson screens should be very effective vs spinal meson guns. According to T5 and Agent of the Imperium a ship must drop its meson screen to fire its own meson gun.
 
Meson screens should be very effective vs spinal meson guns. According to T5 and Agent of the Imperium a ship must drop its meson screen to fire its own meson gun.
That's fair I suppose, but you should note that in this strongest case I laid out, the ghalalk armored cruiser can be fired on by approximately 1/3 of the meson weapon contingent of an imperial sector fleet and take no damage. Said fleet has 7 of these cruisers and most of the other cruisers and above are not far behind
 
Deduct screens from damage to be applied, after all rolls and armour.
This was one of the scenarios I put forward, yes...
The core problem with this one is that the cannon ships are woefully underequiped with screens; a Hadrian class battle rider would be reducing the damage of its own F3 spinal by <3% with it's 9 meson screens, meanwhile these ships are equipping weapons other than mesons for..no reason? Under this model meson weapons are essentially the only ones worth using, even factoring in the costs placed on the enemy for equiping a mixed defensive package. Also does not jive with Sigtrygg's reference
 
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The HG warships are generally copied from CT Fighting Ships; a factor 9 screen became 9 screens in MgT2, which is, as you point out, completely useless.

You need hundreds or thousands of screens to make a difference on capital ships. Unfortunately that is too expensive to be worth it in squadron combat where you can concentrate fire, but quite effective in single combat. Cruisers might reasonably use them? (And hence Cruisers might prefer PA spinals.)
 
The HG warships are generally copied from CT Fighting Ships; a factor 9 screen became 9 screens in MgT2, which is, as you point out, completely useless.

You need hundreds or thousands of screens to make a difference on capital ships. Unfortunately that is too expensive to be worth it in squadron combat where you can concentrate fire, but quite effective in single combat. Cruisers might reasonably use them? (And hence Cruisers might prefer PA spinals.)
Interesting, thanks
 
My understanding was that you apply multiples at the *end*. That makes screens very effective, with three caveats.

1. You need to have a screen for each attack you receive.

2. A big meson gun might take multiple screens to guard against some damage getting through (and you might want to err on the side of safety anyway in case you get a bung roll for the screen).

3. Even if you have a screen, if you bungle the deflect screens roll, it's going to hurt...
 
My understanding was that you apply multiples at the *end*. That makes screens very effective, with three caveats.

1. You need to have a screen for each attack you receive.

2. A big meson gun might take multiple screens to guard against some damage getting through (and you might want to err on the side of safety anyway in case you get a bung roll for the screen).

3. Even if you have a screen, if you bungle the deflect screens roll, it's going to hurt...
I was specifically asking about the fleet combat rules, but I do think it's really odd that the rules for screens in the two systems are so divergent
 
Go back to the source material (CT HG 80)and look at the outcomes for screen factor by TL vs meson factor by TL and then work from that to produce the desired outcomes for MgT HG. The trouble is going from an all or nothing penetration model to a damage reduction model.
 
I was thinking about how radiation was adjudicated in the fleet combat rules, and it seems like, RAW, as long as you apply 1 screen point to a each salvo this nullifies the radiation trait completely, no matter if this is a single small bay, a F12 spinal mount, or a broadside of 60 large bays, which I think is kind of an odd artifact. Also, since squadrons are treated as single ships, attempting to abuse this to achieve radiation kills looks like fielding large numbers of small ships and not placing them into squadrons, which imo sort of violates the design goals of the fleet combat rules. I don't have any specific solution at this point
 
Radiation Shielding negates Radiation effects in Fleet Combat? (At least it did in 2017.)
Not from meson weapons radiation damage on large ships inset hg(u2023) p.14 and the trait table hg(u2023) p.111. incidentally, the former contains a partial answer I guess, this means you also have to track the damage taken by a ship from unscreened meson hits, this whole thing is pretty arcane
 
How you're supposed to apply screens in the fleet combat rules is really unclear I think. as far as I can tell, except for the part where you assemble your screen defence pool, no explanation is given. Perhaps the most raw reading is that you should take the base damage and go through the whole damage determining process:
Sutract defensive dm from offensive (implied by example)
Add result to base damage
Subtract armor
Multiply by damage multiple
Multiply by weapon count
Then the attack effectiveness process:
Add up situation dms
Table lookup
Multiply determined damage
Apply damage
then perhaps you apply screen defence?
it could instead be in between the two processes but I think that doesn't make a lot of sense
either way, both of these methods render screens very weak and the cannon ships don't make a lot of sense, you might expect a single large meson bay to take just over 10 screens to block entirely.
I think this scheme is kind of ridiculous and doesn't really jive with the cannon ships, you might expect a 10kt ship with 6 large meson bays to basically dismantle a tigress, over a few turns but basically unopposed.

the other relatively RAW interpretation is to lean on the non-fleet damage sequence to fill in the gaps, this would place screen reductions in the middle of the damage determining process, after subtracting armor but before multiplying by the damage multiplier. This has sort of the opposite effect, where you would expect a single screen to block an entire meson spinal up to factor 9, and any number of meson bays from a single ship/squadron. This essentially turns meson guns into nerf guns, your spinal mount is being block by something that is 0.015% of it's size. I think this also doesn't really jive with the cannon ships because they equip meson guns in the face of this

I can only conclude that this was an oversight, the thing that I think actually works reasonably is to lift the weapon count multiplier step to after the armor step, and place screen reductions after that, this leads to a single screen blocking about 11 small bays, 9 medium or large bays, or, again 9 factors of spinal mount, this works well for bays but still means spinals are just not worth using, the fix for this is that you could require the factor number screen defense points to neutralize a damage point from spinals, so a factor 1 spinal would take 6 screen points to block entirely, while a F2 would take 24, a F9 486, F12 864. This yields spinals that are really quite threatening, at least at large sizes, I suppose all the ships equiped with F1 meson spinals remain kind of SoL in this case, but that would not be the only very strange design choice in these ships.
Nuclear Dampers (which apparently work vs Fusion weapons, but not specifically against Particle Beams -- something of an oversight, I suppose) certainly seem to be built on the 'before multipliers' model. Against turrets, each Damper reduces incoming damage by 2D & removes the 'Radiation' trait. Five Dampers reduce a Destructive Weapon by 1DD, and removes the 'Radiation' trait. So a single shot from a maximal Particle Beam Spinal mount (80D, presumably 'Destructive', but with the usual 10x 'Destructive' damage multiple replaced with the 1000x 'Spinal' damage multiple) can be negated by 80 Nuclear Dampers.

If they are intended to be 'after multipliers' then that same maximal (28000 dTon, 10000 power) Particle Beam Spinal Mount would (if it rolled minimal damage, ones on all eighty dice) need 114290 dTons (and 228580 power) of defense to stop it, which is a bit extreme.

But Meson Screens are weird, and written differently.
 
My understanding was that you apply multiples at the *end*. That makes screens very effective, with three caveats.

1. You need to have a screen for each attack you receive.

2. A big meson gun might take multiple screens to guard against some damage getting through (and you might want to err on the side of safety anyway in case you get a bung roll for the screen).

3. Even if you have a screen, if you bungle the deflect screens roll, it's going to hurt...
I had the same opinion, based on the damage multiples box on HG22 pg 29 saying subtract armor and other countermeasures, then multiply... but:
When paltrysum says We, he is speaking in the official voice.
Look at his signature line and compare that with the credits page (pg1) of HG22.
Thus, apparently Screens go last in the calculation.

Edit: Man, I hate Necro threads.
 
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