Advanced Jump Point as weapon: possible fix?

[emperorpenguin]

Well after yet another tournament of jump points opening up on ships left right and centre, the debate about them began again.
Many of us talked about this during the breaks and no doubt at the pub too and a few suggestions were mooted such as jump points being secretly recorded prior to battle, jump points being declared a turn before they open etc

On the journey back I had the idea that if jump point formation was nominated at the beginning of the movement phase but the action not completed until after all movement it might be a workable fix.
It would allow some ships the chance to try and evade the jump point as it formed unless they were too slow, unmaneuvrable or hemmed in. It would also force the player opening the jump point to think a little about where his opponent's ships will be at the end of movement rather than simply dropping it down, thus rewarding skilful use rather than all use.

All thoughts are welcome

 

[Chernobyl]

I really think this would only impact ships that are immobile for one reason or another. most ships can easily move out of a 4" range given warning.
I'd like to see a CQ check of some type. Either from the ship designating the area to be jumped into (like the flyer probably did in "in the beginning", or from the jumping ship itself.

Chern

 

[Gungnir]

Or use the normal rules for the scenarios in tournaments, ie only 1 of three scenarios allows hyperspace to be used, or just not allow it at all in a tournament.

 

[Target]

Voting yes as this already the way we play but CQ would also make sense.

 

[Majinga]

Or just remove the damage .

 

[armbarred]

I have faced this tactic, and I use it. I see no problem with it. It isn't any worse than emines, or any other energy based area of effect attack. It is the one advantage ISA ships have against heavier fleets. And it is a tactic that is perfectly viable.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I have faced this tactic, and I use it. I see no problem with it. It isn't any worse than emines, or any other energy based area of effect attack. It is the one advantage ISA ships have against heavier fleets. And it is a tactic that is perfectly viable.

I'm sorry but it's FAR worse than e-mines! e-mines are not triple damage and cannot inflict criticals (which are then further tripled)

It's also not the only advantage the ISA have, they have ships with adaptive armour (which gives them damage in the range of 20+ points) and a 3+ dodge which further increases their longevity to around 60 points

Further they have all precise weapons, nothing less than double damage and the ability to take a point of allies

If you'd seen the abundance of ISA fleets at the tournament and heard Andreas (previous champion) state "ISA are a fleet which can be played by idiots" you'd not be so convinced the ISA are poor :shock:

 

[emperorpenguin]

I really think this would only impact ships that are immobile for one reason or another. most ships can easily move out of a 4" range given warning.
I'd like to see a CQ check of some type. Either from the ship designating the area to be jumped into (like the flyer probably did in "in the beginning", or from the jumping ship itself.

Chern

Some ships could move Chern but remember a cunning Minbari player will know the movement envelope of a sluggish EA ship and place the jump point in such a way that the lumbering behemoth may not be able to get away.
He may also force the ship to use "all stop" or "come about" where the EA player would rather use "CAF" or scout ability

 

[Pauly_D]

I have faced this tactic, and I use it. I see no problem with it. It isn't any worse than emines, or any other energy based area of effect attack. It is the one advantage ISA ships have against heavier fleets. And it is a tactic that is perfectly viable.

Are you playing Sky Full Of Stars :shock:

ISA and Minbari are clearly overpowered for Raid level battle for a few reasons, 1)AJP, it causes damage and it gives them the oppertunity to destroy a weak ship early (Minbari players generally go for the scouts as they have low hull, low damage and will cause them problems later)
2) Dodge/Stealth, the Special abilities of their fleets are not easily made easily to beat, few ships have Anti fighter weapons and they are at max 6", and scouts are weak and get destroyed by AJP's early
3) lots of Beams and double damage, this reduces the advantage any earth fleet has because beams totally ignores interceptors, there isnt anything that is very powerful that ignores dodge or Stealth (only EMines and short range AF weapons)

personally i think Emperorpenguins suggestion was a good one, give ships a chance to get out the way, it could still be used as an advantage for Minbari and ISA

 

[armbarred]

Yes I have been playing SFoS.

I just don't see as big a problem as everyone seems to with this. It is a viable tactic, well within the rules and it is intentional.

Yes, my Whitestars have adaptive armor, and dodge. What I don't have is an abundance of crew. So let's say that the math does work out, and I do have in the area of 60 damage points (which doesn't work out in actual play) I still only have a limited number of crew, and while I have only had one Whitestar actually destroyed since I began playing this game, when it hit shelves so long ago, being crewed out happens all the time.

The younger races can attempt it, yes it will scatter, but that is the downside. If we look from a campaign view, it is why the AJP refit is so powerful.

From a tournament view, I understand it upsets people. But I can't see a reason to nerf it. It works once in awhile, I have seen it yield no damage what so ever, even on hull 3 ships.

But then that's my two cents worth.

 

[Target]

If JP is placed right it could either make opposing ships change course or damn the torpedos and move into the JP's area to get a boresight or CAF.
4 hits on Corvan kills it alright and it's hull 4 so not hard to do. 5 on a Oracle cripples it and leaves it on 2 which isn't hard to do.
I always thought ships could detect JP forming anyway but not whats coming through them.
It just makes sense that a ship has a chance to avoid the blast.
Losing a ship before you can move is a little wrong.

 

[lastbesthope]

If you'd seen the abundance of ISA fleets at the tournament and heard Andreas (previous champion) state "ISA are a fleet which can be played by idiots" you'd not be so convinced the ISA are poor :shock:

I suspect he may have meant me :lol:

Losing a ship before you can move is a little wrong.

Tell that to the Lexington :lol:

LBH

 

[Karhedron]

How many tournement scenarios are there that allow players to keep a significant number of ships in Hyperspace?

Also Minbari fleets in particular tend to have a small number of fairly high level ships (unless you load out on Tigaras and Torothas) so you won't usually be openeing that many jump points. For ISA I can see the point a little.

 

[Garibaldi]

Well, here I go refering back to the series...again! However, At NO TIME in the series does ANY SHIP EVER take damage from a jump point opening at all! Now, let me stop you folks who will say..."what about that Shadow ship that Sheridan took out" Well, you are INCORRECT. That was one and only one time where a jump point was opening (from hyper to real space) and WITHIN that jump point another jump point was opened...thereby causing the destruction of the Shadow ship. A NORMAL jump point was NEVER shown to cause damage of any kind! So, here is my idea...take the damage portion out of the rules for jump points...problem solved! My 2 cents worth. Have at me...

 

[Garibaldi]

While I'm on the subject of jump points...the rule about not being able to fire the round after coming out of a jump point is messed up also! How many times in the series (Here he goes again!! bring up the series!) did we see an Omega come out of a jump point and fire seconds later?!?! Lots! I agree with the rollong a D6 for inches away from the chosen location (without AJP) but the rule against shooting is just wrong and not true to the show. my other 2 cents worth. Have at me (again)...

 

[Chernobyl]

I can think of 2 instances off the top of my head-
"In the Beginning" (granted its a tv movie but not the tv series, they have equal weight though) the black star opens up a jump point in the middle of an EA battle group and severly damages several EA ships, a few are broken in half if I remember correctly.
"A Call to Arms" The victory class ships open a jump point on top of some smaller drakh ships (going to hyperspace, not from hyperspace) and they are completely destroyed.

 

[Balance]

I don't remember if it does, but should using a jump point offensively require a CQ check? it is kinda-sorta like a ram, after all... It doesn't look like it's a particularly safe tactic.

(My copy of ACTA has been at a friend's for a week or so. Trying to get him hooked while I'm traveling.)

 

[Pauly_D]

It is a viable tactic, well within the rules and it is intentional.

it is a viable tactic within the rules and was put in there as an option but it was NOT meant to be used as much as it is, it was a tactical advantage which has been turned into a loophole in the rules, it goes against the spirit of the game

 

[Garibaldi]

Chernobyl,

You are correct....your two examples are in the tv movies...NOT the series. I agree that those incidents happen...however this game is based on the series...not the tv movies.

ArmBarred,

This tactic is valid. No, it is not worse than e-mines...however, it makes a extra weapon that few ships can use. also withing the rules. My opinion is that this "weapon" (for lack of a better term) violates the spirit of the game. And about you not seeing it yield damage on evern hull 3 ships...well...you should have been me once. Two jump points opening on a shadow war level ship...killed it! Boom. over. No chance to evade, shoot back anything. Wrong!

Pauly_D,

Yes, it is within the rules and a viable tactic. And it is a loophole. So, since it is allowed, that would mean that my Vree can jam shadows ships...(Vree are telepaths, telepaths can jam shadows ships...so what if its against the intent of the rules...in a loophole right?)

My 6 cents worth...(3 people addressed...2 cents each...getting expensive!)

 

[emperorpenguin]

How many tournement scenarios are there that allow players to keep a significant number of ships in Hyperspace?

Also Minbari fleets in particular tend to have a small number of fairly high level ships (unless you load out on Tigaras and Torothas) so you won't usually be openeing that many jump points. For ISA I can see the point a little.

In tournament play all scenarios allow you to keep up to 2 points in hyperspace.
Thus I was hit in game 1 by 2 White Stars opening jump points
Game 2 saw 2 Tigaras opening jump points
Game 3 saw 4 Vorlon transports coming out

Most Minbari players I saw or played had about 5 ships (Tigaras, Teshlans, Leshaths were popular) and most younger races had similar numbers (my fleet was 5 strong, my brother's 6) so it wasn't as though the Minbari or ISA were outnumbered even...