A discussion On Shields

[Sutek]

Is your job now to be my very own contradictory little troll, or have you just taken up the activity as a hobby?

Cover can be variable, but any amount of cover negates the ability to provoke attacks of opportunity, grants save bonuses for REF, and negates the ability to attack if total cover exists. I can't see any of those things being properties of Shields.

Concealment can be ignored with the Eyes of the Cat feat, doesn't grant any other bonuses other than the concealment defensive percentile, and never negates the posibility of any types of attacks; the percentage goes to a 50% for total concealment.

I'm also saying that I'm open to lots of ideas, and I've already said this in theis very thread, but I dont'go off and write a treatise on "why Foxworthy is wrong" every time. It seems like I'm the whipping boy lately, and it needs to stop - both you and slaughterj.

 

[Foxworthy]

I'm also saying that I'm open to lots of ideas, and I've already said this in theis very thread, but I dont'go off and write a treatise on "why Foxworthy is wrong" every time. It seems like I'm the whipping boy lately, and it needs to stop - both you and slaughterj.

Except this thread is a discussion thread... meaning things in the thread are going to be discussed. If someone brings up an idea that I disagree with and I can explain the reason citing other sources I will. If people want to tell me I'm wrong on somehting and cite a source I'm fine with that.

I'm not going to stop posting on this forum the way that I do because you feel like whipping boy. I personally don't care how you feel. If you have a problem with that please tell a moderator. I'm sure they would be happy to to notify me if I'm posting abusively.

 

[slaughterj]

Easily.

A Ready Action is something that you must do during combat, after INIT is already rolled.

Allowing a Ready Action when combat seems imenent is not allowed by the rules, but I'd allow it if the player was willing to sacrifice rolling INIT (once that happens, if it happens) with the knowledge that he's goin got have to be reactive to everyone that might ambush him, and so have an automatic INIT count 1 less than the lowest enemy INIT rolled.

This way I'm allowing him to react with a Total Defense ahead of INIT being rolled (which is normally not allowed) but he'd still be reacting after the bad guys in subsequent rounds of combat. Also, since he's still technically going ot be Flat-footed, and thus DV 10, the Total Defense Action only adds to that.

Seems a fair trade for allowing him to "break the rules" to begin with.

An easier way to go woul dbe to allow shields to confer a Concealment bonus at all times.

That makes sense. Basically you are telling them they get to go first, but are declaring total defense with that first action, so that their next chance at an action other than total defense is after everyone (whether technically last on the first round, or first on the next round, it's the same thing really).

 

[slaughterj]

I'm also saying that I'm open to lots of ideas, and I've already said this in theis very thread, but I dont'go off and write a treatise on "why Foxworthy is wrong" every time. It seems like I'm the whipping boy lately, and it needs to stop - both you and slaughterj.

Whaaa? Have I whipped you today? In this thread, we seemed to be having a perfectly fine conversation?!

 

[Sutek]

No, not today or this therad, but I've been feeling pretty "jumped" lately. I'll take you out of my bitchy response....for now...

lol

Just...there's no need to be so damned defensive or snide, guys.

Basically you are telling them they get to go first, but are declaring total defense with that first action, so that their next chance at an action other than total defense is after everyone (whether technically last on the first round, or first on the next round, it's the same thing really).

Not really. I'm telling them "You get to have the advantage of total defense, but you only get that on top of being flat-footed if you get jumped, because normally you aren't allowed to ready an action until combat starts - after INITs have been rolled." Thier count is then set, and they'd have to reset to make it better or whatever. It's like "Look, they rolled a 17 INIT, so you're at 16, just behind them, so you're caught flat-footed but you get credit being on the defensive before you entered the alley and get total defense on top of your DV10."

After all, Total Defence says that you "get +4 to your Defence" and doesn't say that it's a Parry or Dodge bonus, but since you can't Ready an action until after initiative is rolled normally, but you can ready, say...a torch by lighting it...I figure some leniency is due. They can light a torch before they go in there, so other actions ougt to be at least feasible.

 

[Clovenhoof]

*bump*

I'm wondering if there is a Conan supplement introducing Bracers. You know, just a way of protecting the forearm so you can deflect blows with it.

If there's no such thing implemented yet, I'd suggest the following:

Bracer
A Bracer is usually made of metal and hardened leather. It is strapped around the (typically left) forearm and leaves the hands completely free. It cannot be used for bash attacks but allows to wield an off-hand weapon normally.

Shield bonus: +1
ACP: 0
damage/crit: N/A
Hardness/HP - depending on material (maybe 10/4 or 6/4)

 

[argo]

Bracer
A Bracer is usually made of metal and hardened leather. It is strapped around the (typically left) forearm and leaves the hands completely free. It cannot be used for bash attacks but allows to wield an off-hand weapon normally.

I don't like it, it messes with one of the basic pardagrims of the system.

Two-Handed: big damage
Two-Weapon: middling damage but multiple attacks synergize with damage bounses (sneak attack) and is good for fighting multiple opponents
Sword 'n Board: low average damage but high defense

Giving THF and TWF a shield bonus lowers the value of Sword 'n Board which is already on the lower end of the spectrum to begin with.

Just IMNSHO.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, maybe it shouldn't be usable with THF then...
either way, I think "Sword n Board" has its place in the low character levels, where neither Parry nor Dodge values make any kind of proper defense. Unless I really missed something, only the use of a shield (at least targe) allows a first level char to avoid getting hit by any old poop throwing monkey.

 

[Sutek]

If you were to suggest that bracers and greaves add +1 each to DR of any suit of armor worn, then I might say...mmm....okay. However, bracers and greaves are, in my mind, already included.

And I have no response to the "poop throwing monkey" comment. (hehe) Seriously, I don't really know what you're driving at there.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Simple. ^^ Unless I missed something, of course, in which case I'd be happy to get a heads up.

On Level 1, you are likely to have STR and DEX modifiers between +1 and +4. Let's say +3 for a fighter type. Parry and Dodge progression is always at +0. You can't even take the Dodge feat because you need a +1 Dodge bonus for that.

So your Defense Values are likely to be stuck at 13 or so. Which means even rather weak opponents will hit you about 50% of the time. Unless you carry a shield. As opposed to standard D&D where you can an AC of around 17 quite easily at first level, even without shield.

Well? Did I miss anything?

 

[Sutek]

Okay, I see. I ahadn't even analysed it that crucially before, but it makes sense, and it does go towards the theory that shields are better at lower levels in Conan, and becoming more or less superfluous as characters level up.

In that light too, I can see better why shields count as Dodge bonus and, likewise, get negated when a character is caught flat footed.

All this discussion got started on that principle, so I'll dump my assertion of different shield rules in favor of just adding a Feat that allows you to retain a shield bonus with flat footed, so that it'd be DV-Dodge-Parry+Shield = Effective Flat Footed DV. Most of the time that's DV10+Shield.

I think a feat is the way to go.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Now you lost me there. I thought Shields in Melee count towards your Parry Defence?

 

[Yogah of Yag]

I'm wondering if there is a Conan supplement introducing Bracers. You know, just a way of protecting the forearm so you can deflect blows with it.

My fav. Frazetta pic is the famous one w/ the snow giants, and in it Conan is wearing bracers, a horned helm and a really broad, studded belt. I homebrewed DR stats for him thusly:

belt, broad, studded: +0.5 DR
bracers, studded: +0.5 DR
lg. shield: +4
helmet: +1


http://www.fidnet.com/~bushfarm/wnvb/conan10.html

 

[slaughterj]

Okay, I see. I ahadn't even analysed it that crucially before, but it makes sense, and it does go towards the theory that shields are better at lower levels in Conan, and becoming more or less superfluous as characters level up.

Actually the situation gets even worse at higher levels when fighting equal foes, because each class generally progresses quicker on attack bonuses than defense bonuses. So while it may be a 50% chance for 1st level Barbarians to hit one another, 20th level ones probably hit each other about 75% of the time. Therefore, to the contrary, shields become more important at higher levels.

 

[Clovenhoof]

That's right, haven't thought about that yet.

However, a Barb won't be that much better off using a shield at high levels, because his Dodge progression is higher than his Parry progression. So if he has for instance Str 24 and Dex 22, even with a large shield his Parry with Shield and Dodge without Shield will be exactly the same.

(10 +15 +6 = +31 vs. 10 +10 + 7 + 4 = 31)

 

[Netherek]

Ahhh, but the Barbie does have one benefit to a shield, that's vs. missile weapons. In fact the Barbie will have the best defense against them in comparison to a Soldier, so there are reasons for a Barbie to use them.

They might want a shield to better use other feats as well, like utilizing Imp. Sunder with Sundering Parry. So it will be a reflection of fighting style, and I have no problem with the setup. Barbies are the ultimate dodger in the game, followed by the pirate, so having defitioncies in their profile is reasonable.

Though, if one doesn't want to be caught with their pants down, your gonna have to have feats that improve your initiative or deal with flat-footed positions. Armour is important as it should be, it's really not hard to hit a guy, it's getting the wound throught the armour that wins the battle.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Armour is important as it should be, it's really not hard to hit a guy, it's getting the wound throught the armour that wins the battle.

Still I think especially heroes should have the opportunity to avoid getting hit a lot. Right now, I see only the route of Dodge Feat and Combat Expertise and probably some other feat to maintain even a 50% dodge chance at high levels, at the expense of at least two feat slots.

Heretical thought: in the Neverwinter Nights pc game the Tumble skill gave a bonus to AC (+1 per 5 ranks). Maybe that could be allowed in Conan as well. Most characters will be able to get the Tumble skill, and if only through the free Intelligence-based skill points.
So, I'm not sure about the rules right now (how high can you push a cross-class skill with Int points?) but that would increase Dodge defense by 2 to 4 points.

Concerning armour, most armour can and will be penetrated.
Initiative is really bloody important. Maybe better plan in a feat slot for Improved Ini. The old D&D rule "striking first is good, striking last is better" does not seem to hold true in Conan.

 

[Netherek]

True, but you generally encounter characters of lower level making it balanced in that end. Yes it can be brutally short when 2 equal characters run into each other, but that's really how it should be.