Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Why bother with the fighter, just build bigger torpedoes with AI controls...
5FW: Why?
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Massed torpedo attacks, with intersecting arcs.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
The AGM-158C LRASM is an advanced, air-launched missile specifically designed for long-range anti-ship warfare. Its ability to engage high-value maritime targets—such as enemy warships, naval bases, and even commercial vessels—at extended ranges makes it a potent tool for modern naval engagements. What distinguishes the LRASM is its robust seeker technology, which includes an advanced infrared and radar guidance system. This allows the missile to operate effectively in contested environments where GPS and other traditional navigation systems might be degraded or denied. The LRASM is equipped with a 1,000-pound penetrating warhead, ensuring its effectiveness against even heavily armored targets. With a range of over 200 nautical miles, it provides a crucial long-range strike capability, enabling pilots to engage enemy vessels from a safe distance, thus minimizing their exposure to anti-air threats.
Flash News: US Confirms First F-35B Fighter Jet Test Flight with AGM-158C Missile for Enhanced Anti-Ship Capability
Flash News: US Confirms First F-35B Fighter Jet Test Flight with AGM-158C Missile for Enhanced Anti-Ship Capability
www.armyrecognition.com
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
The AGM-158C LRASM is an advanced, air-launched missile specifically designed for long-range anti-ship warfare. Its ability to engage high-value maritime targets—such as enemy warships, naval bases, and even commercial vessels—at extended ranges makes it a potent tool for modern naval engagements. What distinguishes the LRASM is its robust seeker technology, which includes an advanced infrared and radar guidance system. This allows the missile to operate effectively in contested environments where GPS and other traditional navigation systems might be degraded or denied. The LRASM is equipped with a 1,000-pound penetrating warhead, ensuring its effectiveness against even heavily armored targets. With a range of over 200 nautical miles, it provides a crucial long-range strike capability, enabling pilots to engage enemy vessels from a safe distance, thus minimizing their exposure to anti-air threats.
Flash News: US Confirms First F-35B Fighter Jet Test Flight with AGM-158C Missile for Enhanced Anti-Ship Capability
Flash News: US Confirms First F-35B Fighter Jet Test Flight with AGM-158C Missile for Enhanced Anti-Ship Capability
But Air-to-Air Combat and Surface-to-Air Combat, versus Space Combat are apples and oranges due to the orders of magnitude in difference of ranges involved as compared to the relatively comparable accelerations of the weapons package versus the target, as well as the ability to build very large and very armoured and very powerful engines due to the weightless environment.
To make an analogy, it would be as if a Wet Navy Battleship/Cruiser, when fired upon, could lift itself up out of the Sea and fly thru the air at a speed comparable to the fighter aircraft attacking it (and even give chase) while not sacrificing any of its armouring capability, and potentially dodge the missiles even if it cannot outrun them, or casually target them at range because the engagement begins at a distance of 1000km.
Space Combat really just cannot use WW1 and WW2 or the Persian Gulf as a pattern. It is its own thing. That is really why Matt & Marc et al need to think it thru and game it out and see/decide how it is going to look.
- How do they want it to look?
- How should it look for believability?
- A Fleet Combat Wargame should reproduce the results of both the setting fluff/narrative and the "realistic" tactical considerations, based on the above two bullet points.
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Traveller does not have fighters that are 100x faster than the ships they go up against and travel in a different environment, nor is there stealth in space.
A similar missile fired by an Arleigh Burke is a closer analogy, or a surface to surface missile fired from a coast guard cutter...
Build bigger missiles, the fighter is pointless.
A similar missile fired by an Arleigh Burke is a closer analogy, or a surface to surface missile fired from a coast guard cutter...
Build bigger missiles, the fighter is pointless.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
So perhaps the question that should be asked (from the opposite direction):
Since "Fighters" (i.e. small combat craft) have been in Traveller materials since the beginning, what role might/could they play?
- Destruction of External Sensor Arrays/Mounts?
- Destruction of Point Defenses?
- Destruction of vulnerable necessarily exposed components of critical systems/major weapons?
- Disabling of Sub-Capital vessels that CAN do the above?
- General harrying and disabling of critical or necessary systems? (Sometimes all you need to do to take a ship out of action is disable something that is a "sine qua non").
- Pickets?
- Fleet Sensor-Triangulation/Resolution (i.e. Aiding in Synthetic Aperture Array Operations)?
Or would such craft be easily picked off by point defenses from range? Or would they be better outfitted as drones or autonomous craft? What about an attack swarm with a single manned control and target-designation craft?
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Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
Fighters seem to be a good balance for piracy also.
Drop a handful of fighters into a system that is currently experiencing higher than wanted levels of pirate incidents. Pick them back up in a couple of months and move to a new system.
The Fighters would not do well/much against capital ships but spreading out over a system to deal with the adventure class plus sized ships solves the economics of system defense ships issue.
Drop a handful of fighters into a system that is currently experiencing higher than wanted levels of pirate incidents. Pick them back up in a couple of months and move to a new system.
The Fighters would not do well/much against capital ships but spreading out over a system to deal with the adventure class plus sized ships solves the economics of system defense ships issue.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Fighters have their uses as patrol craft under LBB:2 rules, and as interceptors to come to the aid of a merchant under pirate attack. The missiles they carry can do a lot of damage in a confrontation with civilian or paramilitary/pirate vessels.
They are also pretty useful as airborne gunships planet side.
The 10t fighter has a limited computer capability, a limited weapon load out. It is basically an additional turret.
On to LBB:5, fighters have some use at the lower TLs with their limited battery factor, but at higher TLs once computers start to cost significant Cr and EPs they lose all effectiveness as attackers. They do have a role in screening, since HG combat rules allow a squadron of fighters to be in the line while every warship is screened.
They are also pretty useful as airborne gunships planet side.
The 10t fighter has a limited computer capability, a limited weapon load out. It is basically an additional turret.
On to LBB:5, fighters have some use at the lower TLs with their limited battery factor, but at higher TLs once computers start to cost significant Cr and EPs they lose all effectiveness as attackers. They do have a role in screening, since HG combat rules allow a squadron of fighters to be in the line while every warship is screened.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, but that is an entirely different issue. Fighters would do well in the "Coast Guard" / Patrol / Merchant Escort / Commerce Protection Role. There they definitely have a role and an effective reason for existence.
But a battle fleet is something different.
As Aerospace Fighters (i.e. COACC/Marine Orbital to Air to Ground Combat Craft) they would definitely find a role as well.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
In 2300AD there are the X-Ray Laser Detonation Torpedoes (also in TNE) which are stand-off weapon packages (about ~TL11/12) that pack a punch from a "close" distance (albeit against much smaller combat ships).
At higher TLs, what about the possibility of:
- A Gamma-Ray Laser Detonation Torpedo?
- A Focused Particle-Beam Detonation Torpedo Weapon system?
- A Focused Antiparticle-Beam Detonation Torpedo Weapon system? (The antiparticles are created upon detonation, so no storage issues).
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Aren't mines just really slow torpedoes . . .?
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Not the tethered ones. And if they come loose, they're unguided hazards...
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Not in Traveller...lol...
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
A meson warhead - basically a battlefield meson accelerator built into the missile. Maybe a detonation version at lower TLs and a multiple shots at higher TLs.
The experimental disintegrator warhead, based on damper technology its detonation causes the nucleons in the atoms of a large chunk of the target to fall apart, releasing mesons and other nasties that then cause a cascade of atomic disintegration until there is nothing left...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
1. Pan dimensional missile.
2. Homing torpedo.
3. Smallcraft can be considered the first stage of a multistage missile.
2. Homing torpedo.
3. Smallcraft can be considered the first stage of a multistage missile.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Perhaps we could come up with a TL Scale Range of initial introduction of all of the ones mentioned so far, since the Higher TL Vessels will need the Higher TL Weapons to score a good hit.
- TL- 9 ? - An X-Ray Laser Detonation Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system.
- TL- 11 ? - A Gamma-Ray Laser Detonation Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system.
- TL- 12 ? - A Focused Particle-Beam Detonation Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system.
- TL- 12/13 ? - A Focused Antiparticle-Beam Detonation Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system. (The antiparticles are created upon detonation, so no storage issues). *
- TL- 14 ? - A Meson Detonation-Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system. - basically a battlefield meson accelerator built into the missile. *
- TL- 15 ? - A Multi-shot Meson Warhead. - Torpedo Weapon system. - See above. *
- TL- 15 ? - An Exp-Disruptor Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system. - Momentary instantaneous field-effect suppressing the charge on the electron. *
- TL- 16 ? - An Exp-Disintegrator Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system. - Based on nuclear-damper technology its detonation causes the nucleons in the atoms of a large chunk of the target to fall apart, releasing mesons and other nasties that then cause a cascade of atomic disintegration until there is nothing left... *
- TL- 19 - An Early Antimatter-Warhead - Torpedo Weapon system. (per-Traveller5)
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* - A one-use fire-&-forget self-destructive system shouldn't need the level of engineering of a stable, reusable system, so I might argue that we can get away with such a system at a lower TL than would be the standard level of introduction of a "stable" reusable system in the rulesets ( -1 to -2 TL ? ). But some systems may need to be miniaturized (+1 to +3 TL ? ).
Per T5 et al:
Early Nuclear Damper TL11 - Suppresses/Enhances Strong/Weak Nuclear Interactions
Early Meson Screen TL12 - Causes Meson Decay
Early Electronic Scrambler TL11 - Disrupts Electronic Forces
Early Magnetic Scrambler TL13 - Disrupts Magnetic Forces
Early Gravitic Scrambler TL16- Disrupts Gravitic Forces
Early Proton Screen TL18 - Induces Spontaneous Antiproton to Proton conversion OR Proton-Antiproton pair creation
Early Particle Accelerator - TL10
Early Meson Gun TL12 (Battlefield: TL15)
Early Disruptor - TL17 - Suppresses Electron Charge
Early Disintegrator - TL17 - Suppresses Residual Strong Force / Nuclear Meson Field
Early Antimatter Missile - TL19
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Because of the limitations on hardpoints per volume that Traveller has, carried craft are the only way a ship can increase its offensive rating, especially on sub-spinal ships. A laser on a 10 ton externally deployed turret makes sense.
1 ton per 100 tons for triple laser; 100 tons per 100 tons for 10 fighters. It's not like a fighting ship needs much of a cargo hold.
It's not all about hotshot pilots dogfighting. That pulse laser has the same firing characteristics as one in a turret - deploy the flight one range closer for better fire effect while the ship is protected by range.
1 ton per 100 tons for triple laser; 100 tons per 100 tons for 10 fighters. It's not like a fighting ship needs much of a cargo hold.
It's not all about hotshot pilots dogfighting. That pulse laser has the same firing characteristics as one in a turret - deploy the flight one range closer for better fire effect while the ship is protected by range.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Fighters have range restrictions that kneecap the ability to use them at anything but very near distances. One firmpoint can be upgraded to a turret, but I’m not sure the range limitation goes away.
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