2e Vorlon Beam Deflection?

[Alexb83]

Because it gives them flexibility in what they can do, something which everyone for some crazy reason seems averse to on this board whenever something like this is suggested.

It's not just an 'anti-shadow' weapon. Fact is, we only really get a good look at the Vorlons in a fight once (Coriana 6 you never really get a good look at any ships - it's hectic), and it happens to be against the shadows. You really think that super-advanced shields that work against shadow molecular slicer beams would have any trouble working just as well against measly Minbari/Centauri/insert younger race name here weaponry?

 

[emperorpenguin]

I would fluff it that the Vorlon realised the shadow had gotten lucky and rolled a large handfull of hits (precise TD) and decided to forgo its shooting, using its gun instead as defence, knowing that it would probably have to target something else next turn, but at least it would be alive next turn.
.

I would fluff it that there is no shield and the shadow beam struck the vorlon weapon just as it was about to fire, the weapons cancelled each other out.
We see EA ships intercepting each other's main guns with main guns, should they get an interceptor ability.........?

 

[Alexb83]

I think Alexb83 (speaking from reading his posts) has a different idea of how this should work, which seems to be a SA declared Interceptor rule. Alexb first mentioned the idea of how it should work, I just liked his idea and ran off in my own unique direction with it .

It's not a bad idea, Cordas - I mean, dodge works that way afterall (it rolls against all beam hits, including rerolls - despite the fact that I would've thought that if the beam missed in the first instance, it shouldn't get to keep hitting.)
But I'm thinking that like anything potentially useful this will get stamped with 'too powerful' or 'pointless' and ignored.

The SA works because your opponent knows (much like CAB) that you're doing it, so you can't 'trump' their amazing dice after the fact. You trump them before they happen, and take your chances. But if your transport is 30 inches away from a Sharlin, you'll be wanting to use this SA for a few turns - it'll save you some of the damage you /will/ take whilst you try to get close enough to even fire in the first place.

 

[Tank]

Why not? It's in the show! :lol:

 

[Alexb83]

My point exactly, Tank - that seems to be the way the game is going, so why hasn't it been put in already? You can never replicate what you see on screen - could a few flights of Vorlon fighters really kill a Shadow ship in one turn? Bah!! - but you can at least give everyone the ability to try and do what is seen on screen.

Retconning 'oh, this is pointless because you'd be killing yourself with your VHC not to fire at the Shadow ship within 18 inches of you' based on game mechanics' doesn't really work. Perhaps the VHC sacrificed its discharge guns to do it, but then blatted that shadow ship with its lightning cannon?

We didnt' see all the fight - what we did see was Vorlons jump in, disassemble Shadow ships for no loss, and jump out. Game mechanics wouldn't even really allow for what we saw happen, based on what we know Shadows can/can't do and what vorlons can/can't do in the rules (unless the shadows rolled every die as a 1, moved stupidly, and the vorlons rolled every die as a 6).

 

[cordas]

I would fluff it that there is no shield and the shadow beam struck the vorlon weapon just as it was about to fire, the weapons cancelled each other out.
We see EA ships intercepting each other's main guns with main guns, should they get an interceptor ability.........?

Fluff however you want to write it... Would have no probs with other races doing this, although I would give the Vorlons an automatic, whilst the youger races have some risky dice rolls to attempt for it to work. Vorlons are ancients afterall....

 

[Alexb83]

I would fluff it that the Vorlon realised the shadow had gotten lucky and rolled a large handfull of hits (precise TD) and decided to forgo its shooting, using its gun instead as defence, knowing that it would probably have to target something else next turn, but at least it would be alive next turn.
.

I would fluff it that there is no shield and the shadow beam struck the vorlon weapon just as it was about to fire, the weapons cancelled each other out.
We see EA ships intercepting each other's main guns with main guns, should they get an interceptor ability.........?

Heck, you could just interpret it as the Vorlons being able to 'close all blast doors' rather than making it anything else fancy - the energy field just has an equivalent effect - it soaks up some damage. But as has been argued it should only work in certain arcs etc., hence the reason for a different rule. Also, CAB would have no downside for any Vorlon ship aside from the VHC.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Retconning 'oh, this is pointless because you'd be killing yourself with your VHC not to fire at the Shadow ship within 18 inches of you' based on game mechanics' doesn't really work. .

:roll: that isn't ret-conning......... ret-conning is changing something in order to keep continuity.....

 

[Alexb83]

By your reasoning, what the Vorlons did in the show was suicide (based on game mechanics and the proposed rule).
And yet they clearly won the engagement with minimal damage to one ship; so you're either suggesting that the show didn't match the rules, or the rules didn't match the show, demanding a change to either the Shadow's beam range (in which case it wouldn't be suicide to stop the beam) or to the proposed rule for the energy field - which is retroactive continuity.

 

[H]

OK, how about this. The show is a showe, the game is a game, things in the show were plot and cool effects driven, things in the game, are merely dice driven. this clearly does not exist in second ed, and I doubt it will be, as it won't work.
see, my headache makes me snappy!

 

[Alexb83]

Why wont it work? I see it working quite happily and being a useful trait to be able to use (despite what Kat says, there are many, many occasions where you will want to use it to stop the long range beams of doom carving your ships apart - where they couldn't have fired anyway), not to mention being in line with what's seen in the show.

All indications from recent board discussions and from discussions with playtesters in person have been that the drive atm is to make the game like the show in 2e. Here is a prime opportunity.

 

[H]

the game won't take into consideration something as simple as forward arc beams on a G'Quan, so taking in something more complex, that I see as something that will barely if ever get used seems a bit unlikely.

 

[Alexb83]

Well, I don't know about other Vorlon players - but I've had situations where I've wanted something like this in every single game I've played.

Ironically the only ship that really wouldn't need to use it is the VHC, which is the one we see using it, since it has main gun range that matches the other races.
Transports, Destroyers and LCs are short ranged enough that you can almost guarantee in any game they will find themselves getting shot at when they have no targets in range of themselves - so they will benefit from this mechanism.

At 18 inch range even the VHC would benefit from being able to sacrifice its secondary guns to get 12 'dodges', whilst still firing its main gun.

It also adds to the urgency of trying to outmanouver the Vorlons - currently noone really needs to bother - just keep them at arms length and slug away with SAP DD beams, and then when they manage to get close enough to fire back, fly past them and slug away with DD secondaries.

 

[emperorpenguin]

so you're either suggesting that the show didn't match the rules, or the rules didn't match the show, demanding a change to either the Shadow's beam range (in which case it wouldn't be suicide to stop the beam) or to the proposed rule for the energy field - which is retroactive continuity.

that isn't retroactive continuity....... :roll:

I'm not in favour of changing anything

 

[katadder]

the vorlons already have adaptive armour and self repair, do they really need another defense on top of that?
do you want vorlon transports to start at battle and then work upto anceint level for the VHC?

 

[Alexb83]

If a retcon is widely accepted as 'deliberately or accidentally changing established facts in a work of serialised fiction', then the system as it is atm is a retcon! - atm the Vorlons can't do things which established continuity shows they should be able to do.

Given the overhauls to the system to give shadows/whatever race things from the show, why is this one such an issue?

 

[emperorpenguin]

because as said the Vorlons don't need it
because there is no proof there is a shield, we see ONE example of a shot striking a Vorlon about to fire itself
because EA ships fire their big guns to intercept all the time, should they get extra interception ability?

 

[H]

should the g'quan get forward beams....

this is my new crusade!

 

[katadder]

should the primus get shields against fighter attacks?

 

[H]

if it had em in the show, then yes!