[2300 AD] North America

[Lemnoc]

I’m having a bit of trouble reconciling and visualizing the geopolitics and map of North America.

At this point, I favor the "Nine Nations of North America" paradigm, with Quebec most certainly aligning her fortunes with the rising French state.

I see the South south of the Dixon line resisting the ol’ Northern Aggression thing again, with Texas taking opportunity to withdraw (Third Time’s The Charm!), tearing loose the American Southwest, which is snapped up by a rising Mesoamerican state. At some point, I do see Dixie rejoining with the Northeast and Midwest resources in a reformed America because interests and alliances are similar. But I also see the cosmopolitan and populist Pacific Northwest, never much interested in secessionist screwball hissy fits, joining protective alliances with Canada into a sort of peaceful and green Republic of British Columbia Ecotopia. Texas, as always, asserts its independence, but I see that Republic appealing to much of the interior of the sympathetic Heartland north, thereby becoming much larger and more prosperous than described.

In the end you have a five-way, with an enlarged Protectorate du Quebec, a new sort of Canada with a finger extending down the West Coast. Mexicalifornia looking for all practical reasons like it did around the time of the Treaty of Cahuenga, with everything south of San Francisco happily Hispanic. Texas swaggering, bragging and trigger-happy in the middle, Denver as a border town. What’s left of the good ol’ Eastern Seaboard U.S.A. looks a like it did around 1812, with the perhaps the Platte River drainage basin and all those sweet prairie grassfields thrown in for good measure.

Whether you agree with the details or not, this seems to answer most of the history as described and parcels out roughly equal territory and, importantly, compatible sensibilities within these territories. Thus some stability for AD 2300. What I can’t see, given what’s described, with Texas in the middle, is a unified America that ever relinks the coasts... or anything like 48 states.

Thoughts?

 

[Mithras]

As an Englishman, I'm very happy to defer to your more insightful thoughts on this. They sound extremely well reasoned and plausible to me ....

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I did something similar with my version of North America.

Quebec is a Department of France and extends a bit beyond it's current borders.

Texas is independent along with Oklahoma and a chunk of SW Kansas (several counties there tried to succeed and form their own state in the 90's, so it seems reasonable that they would jump to Texas during Twilight)

Pacifica is a new nation consisting of everything west of the Continental Divide and north of Big Sur and the Red River (except Deseret below). I have a nice little history for this with a Battle of Big Sur seeing British Columbian troops helping former US troops repulse the north-moving Mexicans.

Deseret is a Mormon state formed from the former Utah and pieces of Nevada and Idaho.

The US is everything else, including the interior Canadian provinces.

On the interstellar scene, I gave all the Canadian Colonies to Pacifica.

 

[Lemnoc]

Deseret is a Mormon state formed from the former Utah and pieces of Nevada and Idaho.

I like this idea. These areas are demographically distinct from either Pacifica or Texas and don't integrate well into either. Plus I love the idea of Las Vegas 2300 being infused with a tangy brand of wealth obsessed All-American religiosity, a sort of Scientological Mormonism built around odds calculations. I imagine a church spire topped with a towering platinum needle through which is passed a solid gold camel with glittering eyes of diamond. :lol:

The US is everything else, including the interior Canadian provinces.

I imagine the Brits would have a fit if the Yanks broke out the old 54'40" or Fight nonsense on their former Dominion.

On the interstellar scene, I gave all the Canadian Colonies to Pacifica.

Elegant.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Why not use the name that was suggested in the early 19th century by US presidents Thomas Jefferson and John Q Adams for the N.W. region (which they saw as a future separate country: "Cascadia"?

 

[Lemnoc]

Why not use the name that was suggested in the early 19th century by US presidents Thomas Jefferson and John Q Adams for the N.W. region (which they saw as a future separate country: "Cascadia"?

I don't have a problem with "Cascadia" (hey, I live there ). But I'm pretty sure Good Tom J never saw the area as a separate country, he being the guy who understood that when you draw the map you acquire the territory. Hence his assigned expedition to these parts.

 

[Gypsy Knights Games]

I don't have a problem with "Cascadia" (hey, I live there ). But I'm pretty sure Good Tom J never saw the area as a separate country, he being the guy who understood that when you draw the map you acquire the territory. Hence his assigned expedition to these parts.

I think you'll find that Jefferson did intend it to be a separate country.

At any rate, as you can see here, I've always been rather fond of the name.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I don't have a problem with "Cascadia" (hey, I live there ). But I'm pretty sure Good Tom J never saw the area as a separate country, he being the guy who understood that when you draw the map you acquire the territory. Hence his assigned expedition to these parts.

As mentioned, he did actually view it as a separate country (or at least a future country).

However, it still certainly has the potential... and in 2300 could well be so (as desired).

 

[Lemnoc]

I think you'll find that Jefferson did intend it to be a separate country.

At any rate, as you can see here, I've always been rather fond of the name.

Well, it has always felt like a separate country to me. :mrgreen:

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I actually thought about calling it Cascadia, but since it includes Alaska and a hunk of western Canada, I felt it needed something "bigger".

In my version, Las Vegas was destroyed/abandoned during the US Civil War and is now part of the Mexican Empire. Deseret only controls the NE parts of Nevada.

The border between Pacifica and Mexico is a line drawn just south of Big Sur from the coast to the Red River. I wanted to keep the idea that Mexico invaded the southern US during the Second Civil War, I liked that idea.

Regarding Canada becoming part of the US... Well, I envisioned that coming out of Twilight, Both the US and Canada needed each other and the merger into a single nation came about organically after a couple of decades. Canada had already lost Quebec and its entire western border, there was no Canadian government after Twilight, so the individual provinces of Canada joined with the re-constituted US out of necessity.

YMMV

 

[Lemnoc]

I actually thought about calling it Cascadia, but since it includes Alaska and a hunk of western Canada, I felt it needed something "bigger".

Rocky Mountain Free State probably works, too

Regarding Canada becoming part of the US... Well, I envisioned that coming out of Twilight, Both the US and Canada needed each other and the merger into a single nation came about organically after a couple of decades. Canada had already lost Quebec and its entire western border, there was no Canadian government after Twilight, so the individual provinces of Canada joined with the re-constituted US out of necessity.

Makes sense. It's certainly a way to climb the states back up to 48, as declared by canon.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I was less worried about canon than I was trying to realistically think what the provinces and states would do at the end of Twilight.

Consider:
Canada is basically destroyed, the western coastal provinces are part of Pacifica (with strong ties to Manchuria) and the eastern provinces have been gobbled up by Quebec and now has the support of the French.

What does that leave for the middle provinces. They are land-locked and population poor. A reforming USA might look attractive as an alternative to chaos and obscurity.

I am one of those people who consider "Canon" a good place to start. I liked many of the things from the "Great Game" as described in the original 2300, so I kept what I liked and changed the rest based on my knowledge of the region (right or wrong). Then I reassigned the off-world colonies in ways that made sense to me. I like the idea of the Arms, so those stayed, but I didn't like that Manchuria was primitive compared to the others, I felt that was a western bias, so I changed it and made the American Arm the lowest technology. Sure that meant I had to (and will have to continue to) redo the ship designs, but I don't mind. I LIKE that the USA is now #3, after all, they had to join with Australia to even HAVE a space program (how far the mighty have fallen). I am from the US, but I still like this vision of the future.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

One other thing I have considered is redoing the "history" of the Second Civil War in the US. I have always had problems with the description of this conflict (mostly from the original 2300 since Colin leaves it quite vague - good job).

Consider this alternative:

As the world is falling apart at the beginning of Twilight, the differences between the Democrats and Republicans continue to increase. Rhetoric gets worse and you actually get terrorist attacks by the most extreme (probably starting with a Tea Party attack on a "communist" but not necessarily). So the country falls apart over Democrat/Republican lines. So look at a political map of the US and divide the country between Blue and Red. THAT is the beginning of the Second Civil War. Eventually, they come back together, but by then Texas has gone it's own way (and in my version, so has everything west of the Rockies).

The final government (based on 2300 history) seems to be more Democrat than Republican - A stronger central government with less State independence, with the off-world colonies acting as an outlet for frustrated Republicans.

This creates an interesting dynamic within the American Arm in 2300. Many of the colonies might actually be more Republican leaning than the homeworld USA government. Although after 200 years, just about anything could be said about the government. The offworld colonies of the USA might be much more independently minded than is mentioned in canon. Should something happen that threatens that control from Earth, a lot of them might just declare themselves independent and turn to someone else...

 

[Lemnoc]

I kept what I liked and changed the rest based on my knowledge of the region (right or wrong). Then I reassigned the off-world colonies in ways that made sense to me. I like the idea of the Arms, so those stayed, but I didn't like that Manchuria was primitive compared to the others, I felt that was a western bias, so I changed it and made the American Arm the lowest technology. Sure that meant I had to (and will have to continue to) redo the ship designs, but I don't mind. I LIKE that the USA is now #3, after all, they had to join with Australia to even HAVE a space program (how far the mighty have fallen). I am from the US, but I still like this vision of the future.

I share many of these thoughts, which is why I tried to get my head around the configuration of North America in a way that was sensible (see below).

I admire the 2300 cosmological work of Anders Sandberg (so much I named an Institute after him) and have tried to incorporate that into my understanding of the 2300+ era. Knowing the Manchurian Arm is closed causes me to consider that they’re more a police state than primitive. Like you, I consider the USA is readying for some major fall, compounded by that arrogant and enduring sense of exceptionalism that will prevent them from understanding others like China and the Euro states really hold the lead and the edge.

One other thing I have considered is redoing the "history" of the Second Civil War in the US. I have always had problems with the description of this conflict (mostly from the original 2300 since Colin leaves it quite vague - good job).

Agreed. I was never fond of the whole MilGov versus CivGov thing, since that is not a line along which the United States has been divided in its history. It has really been divided along federalist and states rights lines, religio-traditionalist lines versus cosmopolitan lines, exacerbated by cultural friction between urban and rural areas. Red state v. Blue state.

I could accept the Game’s premise that a constitutional crisis erupted where the ascendency of one president is challenged (worsened by a military unwilling to call him/her CinC) and a fracture forms. Not too far of a stretch to imagine that one faction would believe a president was not constitutionally empowered to lead :roll: Thus we have a "Second War of Northern Aggression.”

Seems like it always takes two times to solve these things—the first war, the reconstruction/reformation period of naive and kindly reconciliation, and the inevitable second war where large swaths of “the problem” are angrily put down.

Like you, I imagine the USA reknitting afterward, because the problems and potentials of Dixie are not too dissimilar from those of the Rust Belt and, ultimately, the megacities of the Northeast.

But unlike you, I see continental America 2300 as a rat’s nest of extremism, narcissism, and delusional jingosim—unhealthy, superstitious, gun-toting French haters screaming “We’re Number One” to an indifferent world that long ago stopped listening and moved on. Their single gift, as it always has been, they make extraordinary powerful and dangerous weapons and delivery systems. Taking a riff from Robert W. Chambers, I stuck a Suanee Free State down in the swamp lands as an anarchy preserve to siphon off the worst of this. The best of it went to the stars. Tirane is the model of what might have been, strong and energetic, and whatever spirited Yankee mojo is working works there best.

Texas (another weapons whiz) and the West somehow carry on the best entrepreneurial spirit through cagey alliances with other world powers. Texas and Australia are kindred spirits, too busy admiring their vast open landscapes to worry too much about the faded empires that kept them thrall.

EDIT: I do like your idea of the "state's rights" folks moving to the colonies. But I also don't see the conservative mindset as being the bold, exploratory type. In US history you had the Tories loyal to the king and your bolder explorer types as being apolitical or grudgingly political (Crockett, et al).

 

[Sturn]

The final government (based on 2300 history) seems to be more Democrat than Republican - A stronger central government with less State independence, with the off-world colonies acting as an outlet for frustrated Republicans.

This creates an interesting dynamic within the American Arm in 2300. Many of the colonies might actually be more Republican leaning than the homeworld USA government. Although after 200 years, just about anything could be said about the government. The offworld colonies of the USA might be much more independently minded than is mentioned in canon. Should something happen that threatens that control from Earth, a lot of them might just declare themselves independent and turn to someone else...

This is interesting, thanks.

I've bounced around an idea for sometime that may explain a more stable US in 2300AD even with the Twilight War causing even more disruption (CivGov, MilGov, New America) - A return to state power. With lots of power being shifted back from the Federal government to State governments (as initially intended) you may eventually have a place for everyone with each State developing its own unique political character - Liberal, Conservative, Libertarian, etc. With 3 centuries to get like-minded people as neighbors, you end up with the politicaly stable US of 2300AD.

 

[Sturn]

But unlike you, I see continental America 2300 as a rat’s nest of extremism, narcissism, and delusional jingosim—unhealthy, superstitious, gun-toting French haters screaming “We’re Number One” to an indifferent world that long ago stopped listening and moved on. Their single gift, as it always has been, they make extraordinary powerful and dangerous weapons and delivery systems.

Wow.

 

[Colin]

I've been reluctant to wade in on this. There have been some good ideas, many of which I disagree with.

There's only a couple of changes I would've made. An independent Quebec would be one of them. Indepedent, but allied with a Canada that accepts them rather than a France that disdains them as "provincial".

I could see Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia becoming a country, but there some significant differences, with BC/Oregon seeming to have more in common then with Washington.

I'm not ever going to speak to what happened during Twilight with any sort of specifics, certainly not in any "official" way. The way this thread is dancing around real-world politics should illustrate why.

Also, please note that, whatever some may think, the fictional depiction of a 24th century United States (or Canada, or Europe) is strictly fiction, and not meant to reflect any sort of real-world situation or opinion.

Earth of the 24th Century is a strange place, and indeed,the colonies are written to be more "familiar" than Earth, in many ways. The western nations are all surveillance states, China combines an imperial dynasty with a elected parliament, Iran is a bastion of freedom, as long as you are a citizen, Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon not only got along, but get along with the Palestinians. Texas is as much a welfare state as any European nation...

On the colonies, on the other hand, people tend to have a strong libertarian streak, even as they ignore the subsidies and support that allowed them to settle an alien planet. People in the colonies aren't looking for strong government, but more for government to leave them alone. This is true even in the Manchurian and Incan colonies, or at least the hope of less government control.

 

[Lemnoc]

please note that, whatever some may think, the fictional depiction of a 24th century United States (or Canada, or Europe) is strictly fiction, and not meant to reflect any sort of real-world situation or opinion.

...And I was not trying to reflect any sort of politics, but to describe the situation on the ground in North America: Obviously, by geographical fact, the USA somewhere along the way lost the king’s horses and king’s men to put the continent back together again, whether they could not, or did not wish to do so. Either speaks to a certain condition or outlook.

The enduring central position of Texas seems to shield the larger West from reunification efforts, and opens these regions to construct their own new associations.

These are things we know happened. What can we make of them?

The nature of exploration and colonialism, IMO, is that those who do not strike out are more conservative in temperament, less comfortable with change or transformation, much more comfortable with tradition and precedent and status quo—The Real ( _Insert Nationality Here_ ). To the extent a political axis has durable meaning through time, one might define liberal as more open to novel experience, and that sounds like the kind of creative class that would strike out for the stars. You can’t have too much bleed out of that without a commensurate lessening of that balance in the older established regime. The entire effort of colonizing creates a relief valve of sorts (while admittedly also creating its own new frictions) as the cream separates from the curd.

That seems to speak to a particular kind of political schism underway right now, but I would submit the schism is a much more durable feature in American history between those who support a unitary authority and those who oppose it.

YTUMMV.

 

[rust]

The nature of exploration and colonialism, IMO, is that those who do not strike out are more conservative in temperament, less comfortable with change or transformation, much more comfortable with tradition and precedent and status quo—The Real ( _Insert Nationality Here_ ).

A historical real world example for this kind of situation could be
Germany after the failed revolution of 1848, when many of the
leading liberals and their supporters migrated from Germany to
North and South America, which resulted in a significantly more
conservative political climate in Germany.

 

[Lemnoc]

With lots of power being shifted back from the Federal government to State governments (as initially intended) you may eventually have a place for everyone with each State developing its own unique political character - Liberal, Conservative, Libertarian, etc. With 3 centuries to get like-minded people as neighbors, you end up with the politicaly stable US of 2300AD.

This is sort of what I was considering in my Nine Nations of North America notions. Durable associations of choice and temperament. The fact you can head out to the stars, the way experimentalists in an earlier era may've headed out to Guyana, assists this sorting.