[2300 AD] North America

[Lemnoc]

I've been reluctant to wade in on this. There have been some good ideas, many of which I disagree with.

There's only a couple of changes I would've made. An independent Quebec would be one of them. Indepedent, but allied with a Canada that accepts them rather than a France that disdains them as "provincial".

I could see Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia becoming a country, but there some significant differences, with BC/Oregon seeming to have more in common then with Washington.

I appreciate your thoughts and insights, BTW.

I found N America the most perplexing Core region (followed by Africa and whatever the heck is happening in the Urals?!?) because territories and divisions today are clearly not those described of the 24th Century. Yet, we have an American Arm. A puzzle.

Being a far wanderer of the area known as Cascadia, I can assure you Washington and Oregon get along fine and share a particular ethos (and odd crotchetiness) with Lower BC and Northern Cali down to SFrisco, the southern terminus of the Kingdom of Rain. The division is stranger west to east than north to south. Its capital I would probably assign to Vancouver, BC, since that is the most culturally diverse and metropolitan city (yes, even a tad more than SF). Or maybe—taking a riff from Highlander—Seacouver. Plus it is regionally central.

Southern Alaska would probably come along, too, if asked very politely and left alone thereafter.

I tend to think RTT is on to something with his Pacifica. It is larger in scale and scope; and "Cascadia" has acquired some treehugger connotations offputting to the hinterlands. So if you wanted to declare something canonically, I would bless it.

On the colonies, on the other hand, people tend to have a strong libertarian streak, even as they ignore the subsidies and support that allowed them to settle an alien planet. People in the colonies aren't looking for strong government, but more for government to leave them alone. This is true even in the Manchurian and Incan colonies, or at least the hope of less government control.

Again, thanks for your insights. Libertarian really is beyond left and right, being fixed to neither. Makes sense to me.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I've been reluctant to wade in on this. There have been some good ideas, many of which I disagree with.

(snip)

I'm not ever going to speak to what happened during Twilight with any sort of specifics, certainly not in any "official" way. The way this thread is dancing around real-world politics should illustrate why.

Also, please note that, whatever some may think, the fictional depiction of a 24th century United States (or Canada, or Europe) is strictly fiction, and not meant to reflect any sort of real-world situation or opinion.

I appreciate your concern and reluctance to chime in. In my case, it is merely an exercise of the mind, looking at variations. Some of the major events of the old history (original 2300AD "The Great Game") and your history since Twilight has inspired me to LOOK at what the world is and envision a slightly different political map.

Admittedly, my changes are just that MY changes, but I want them to be logical if possible. I WANTED to break up America, so I had to come up with what I felt was a logical way to do that, something that made sense to me based on having lived in most of the regions I broke apart (Seattle, Idaho, SoCal, Kansas, Okalhoma etc).

I NEVER intended to imply that I disagreed with the official setting, I was INSPIRED by it.

I also appreciate that you are NOT talking about Twilight. I like it better that way, it lets me do whatever I want to do (or nothing).

NOTHING I am writing should in any way be taken as a criticism of your work. I was simply looking at alternatives that might be interesting.

I LOVE the new 2300 book!

 

[Rick]

I used to have the old 2300 (still saving pennies for the new one!) and I always assumed the American Arm to have been colonised by a coalition of states from North and South America - including Cuba, Hawaii, Canada, Alaska, etc. Not just primarily the geographical USA. Same with the French Arm, a coalition of France, former French colonies like Algeria, Vietnam, other African or Indo-China countries. Gives a bit more scope and diversity!

 

[Lemnoc]

I NEVER intended to imply that I disagreed with the official setting, I was INSPIRED by it.

Well said, sir.

 

[2330ADUSA1]

I never felt that the 2300 AD history for America would have actually happened. If anything America could become extremely aggressive and could become quite nasty in many ways. I have rewritten that history to foster even more hatred and open warin my campaign. Genetic's and Clone wars are in full rage on Earth in my own campaign. Actually my campaign I started in 2330 and is currently 2335 with a full scale war raging in human space. The American's use Genetics, Clones, and Robots/Droids and are winning the war. Might and nationalism make right, and morals well they are ideas talked about by those that win the wars and are arround to write the histories in the end.

Penn

 

[Lemnoc]

I never felt that the 2300 AD history for America would have actually happened. If anything America could become extremely aggressive and could become quite nasty in many ways... Might and nationalism make right, and morals well they are ideas talked about by those that win the wars and are arround to write the histories in the end.

I tend to agree that, in a universe full of gray areas and awful actors, America makes a pretty cool default bad guy.

Part of it, I think, is that the USA will not (CANNOT!) go gently into that good night of Twilight. And, if they do, they will not emerge on the other side fully territoried and made whole. Too much puffed-up exceptionalism bound up in a smaller package. Ego-bruised... with nukes and a cranky attitude. USA/America has always been clever and adaptive, unconcerned with convention and rules, inventive to the point of ruthless, piracy and racketeering hardwired right into its constitution, happy to rewrite the rules to suit favorable outcomes.

It's more a recipe for Doctor Doom than Mother Theresa. The Eddie Haskell of nation states.

Like RTT, I favor post-Twilight America in some place other than First. And, like on that singular morning the Roman Empire awoke to discover they could no longer remember how to make concrete, not completely in possession of what that all means.

My $0.02.

 

[rust]

An interesting discussion. In my setting the USA has become isolationist,
even parochial, with a weak economy and a technology that is significant-
ly lower than that of other nations. Most of the active and innovative citi-
zens have migrated to the colonies, and what remained behind is focus-
sed on internal problems and debates and mostly irrelevant to the bigger
world around it.

 

[2330ADUSA1]

Ok I must remind people that this is a Fantasy Game, and the person that wrote the histroy for the game was a person of questionable political politics and intent. I feel that there is no way that France would ever end up on top of anything, if I had to choose I would choose Germany over any nation other than the US.

Now yes I am speaking as a American native born citizen who ancestors have been here in tese lands since 1649 as Land Owners, and I can trace my ancestors back to 1109 AD. Looking at the current real world situation, I still feel the US will retain the space race advantage and etc. Now that being said I have tailored my own campaign as I see fit and yes I have used the history of the game as the base but expanded on it to add many more deeper plots and strfe and conflicts.

I don't have the vision of America as a failing nation, but rather one that is changing into a darker one that is shedding the politics of the past and changing into a much darker one in the future. In my campaign view Genetics, Cloning, and the Technology Race will greatly increase the darker side of things and still provide a template for alot of political strife within the campaign. Welcome to the Dark Side folks.

Penn

 

[Lemnoc]

An interesting discussion. In my setting the USA has become isolationist,
even parochial, with a weak economy and a technology that is significant-
ly lower than that of other nations. Most of the active and innovative citi-
zens have migrated to the colonies, and what remained behind is focus-
sed on internal problems and debates and mostly irrelevant to the bigger
world around it.

This vision is also not out of bounds with the RAW and, from an operational standpoint, not terribly different than how I call it. Diminished motives, diminished execution. i just see 'em as crankier about it.

America can't be too isolationalist too early because they engaged in the Space Race with some aggression and vigor early on, particularly Mars and Tirane, but they certainly could become more so over time. Especially as the more adventuresome citizens move out into the stars. But I also find it suggestive that America couldn't quite make it out there on its own steam, that the tech or culture is in some undefined way crippled. I just don't see 'em owning up to it

And I liked that earlier suggestion on this thread that the Arms were actually settled by an amalgam of world effort, with each arm some reflection of a hemisphere of the globe. That fits the RAW rather well.

 

[2330ADUSA1]

I feel that the US would focus on Mars and would seek to study it with extreme intense interests. Now in my own campaign I added in the Total Recal Alien processing plants (20 of them) and have the Americans locate and activate all of them. Then after 25 yrs of working on the atmosphere Mars still has a Thin Atmosphere but enough of a one to have a warmer climate with gases to allow the beginning of flow of liquid water on it's surface with the introduction of some hybrid genitically altered basic plants types to start the green process of Mars. Honestly I feel that would be a goal that the US would have and it fits for my beliefs and campaign.

Hey in my own campaign America is far from a perfect place or society, but it is also a place of great adventure.
I like to think of the USA as a Dark Future but one of strength and not weakness.

Penn

 

[Lemnoc]

Ok I must remind people that this is a Fantasy Game...
...the person that wrote the histroy for the game was a person of questionable political politics and intent...
...no way that France would ever end up on top of anything...
...I am speaking as a American native born citizen who ancestors have been here in tese lands since 1649 as Land Owners...

Spoken like my kind of American!!! :lol: :lol:

 

[rust]

I feel that there is no way that France would ever end up on top of anything, if I had to choose I would choose Germany over any nation other than the US.

I think you underestimate France and overestimate Germany.
France has been Europe's and thereby the world's top nation
for many centuries, which is why French is still the language
of international diplomacy. France had a very bad 20th centu-
ry, but it is recovering rather well. Germany, unless domina-
ted by one of its more aggressive member states (e.g. Prussia)
or under the rule of a ruthless dictator, has little active inter-
est in geopolitics and even less interest in any kind of political
leadership role, being an alliance of states itself it very much
prefers to be a strong member of an alliance with shared res-
ponsibilities.

 

[2330ADUSA1]

Hmmm well I think England or the English might not agree with you there on that point about France and her "importance" in the world currently or the past.

I can only look at what was the past 100 or so years and where they are at currently in the whole scope of the big picture of the world and they are not where 2300 AD hase placed them. Also I see many other nations still in direct conflict with them and the US is still ahead of them all. If one looks at technology lead and size and strengths of ones arms forces, then the US is far ahead of them. France might have a great past and maybe they might have some great future, but the real key for mankind is to unite as ONE World and act together as ONE. We all bleed Red Blood, and are all from the same little blue marble in space and until that is learned by all, then we will always be limited.

For the record I am a native born American, who's ancestors came to these lands (North America) in 1649 AD (Dutch/French/English/Scotish) and (German/Swiss/Dutch/Norwegien) and can trace my family lines back to 1129 AD. I am college educated with a BA from Temple University, and have servered as a Us Army Special Forces Airbourne Ranger Sniper NCO, and am a Senior/Lead Oracle Database Administrator...plus I have been a gamer/player of RPGs now for 36+ years. I do love my country of America and have carried a weapon and used it in her service. Plus I am a Scout Master for my local Boy Scout's of America Troop too, with two sons that are both working on their Eagle Scout projects to gain Eagle Scout rank and both also have 50 and 51 merit badges to their credit so far too. I believe in my native land and am not afraid to defend it even in a game. Granted in my own game, I have modified America to be a much Darker place than it is for real...but then that is called Fantasy.

Penn

 

[rust]

Hmmm well I think England or the English might not agree with you there on that point about France and her "importance" in the world currently or the past.

Well, they have been under the rule of a French dynasty for more
than 300 years, with French as the language of nobility and court
and culture, so at least some of them should agree ... :wink:

 

[Lemnoc]

France has been Europe's and thereby the world's top nation for many centuries, which is why French is still the language of international diplomacy. France had a very bad 20th century, but it is recovering rather well. Germany, unless dominated by one of its more aggressive member states (e.g. Prussia) or under the rule of a ruthless dictator, has little active interest in geopolitics and even less interest in any kind of political leadership role, being an alliance of states itself it very much prefers to be a strong member of an alliance with shared responsibilities.

Glad you made these points.

As you note, France dominated much of Europe for the longest time—from the Frankish kingdoms to their role in the HRE, the empires of Charles VIII and the Sun King, onward to the Napoleonic age. Somehow, through it all, they kept their religious institutions intact. Managed to avoid the worst and most corrosive aspects of the slave trade. Colonized Africa and the Middle East in a sophisticated way and, as you say, excelled in the language of diplomacy.

Even at their most sparkling heights, the Kings and Queen of England never had the power and authority of France.

 

[2330ADUSA1]

Well all that might be true, BUT currently in the world the USA is the leader and I do not feel it will loose that position for quite a long time to come.

Penn

 

[Captain Jonah]

Well 300 years is a very long time.

A little more than a hundred years ago The sun never set on the British Empire, Queen Victoria was the head of state of the worlds superpower and everyone else was playing catch up.

Now look at us :roll:

France has been powerful and pitiful in equal measure over the last thousand years. The Normans who won in 1066 and set themselves up as rulers of England were from Normandy and considered themselves very different to the French. Until foolish kings squandered it England commanded half of France, Calais was the last English City in France to be taken back by the French.

French is the language of Diplomacy, that’s nice for it.

English is the language of Technology and international communication.

As it stands right now we are looking at a fairly significant period of history. The balance of power is swinging from West to East, helped significantly by the odd and sometimes suicidal policies of Western leaders. The 21st century is looking to be a Pacific century as the 20th was an Atlantic century.

The US is currently the world’s major power. Will it be in 5 years if it continues its current economic and military policies?

We may all chuckle at nations like China claiming to be world powers with technology two generations out of date, where Chinese hackers steal western technology that is too advanced for the Chinese to even use because they lack the infrastructure to use it, where the Chinese are joining the ranks of the worlds carrier nations using a second hand Russian ship that still doesn't have aircraft.

But if the US continues building a huge debt owned by China, if the massive Defence cuts come in and kill most of the US R&D into current and next gen equipment, if China uses it stranglehold on rare earth strategic minerals and basically shuts down US high tech military production, if the high tech companies of western Europe decide that local markets are failing as the euro plunges yet again and decide to go east for business and along the way begin increasing the basic technological infrastructure of the far east’s major players. Then what?

The idea that France is a major super power with its own arm of explored space is, erm, entertaining. Still a lot hinges on early steps which lay the building blocks for future expansion which leads to increased income which leads to more expansion.

A relatively minor nation now could grow in power over the next 8 generations and reach levels undreamed of now. By the same token current super powers could hold back and find themselves obsolete and overtaken.

After all, while the US is still the Super power, they have to ask the Russians to put Americans into space. 2300 is a game about what happens when technology and space travel advances. Its not hard to end up so far behind that it takes decades to catch up, NASA is no longer in the business of manned space exploration and development. As existing space crew get older there will be few experienced people to replace them. Once you have no more people to fly the missions or to train the next generation of space crew it means you need to start from scratch while nations that have current technology and trained crews are out there grabbing the best bits.

Give it 20 or 30 years for the current trained and experienced crews to get too old to work or die leaving no one to train the replacements then invent the stutter warp and see who has the ability to put stutter warp ships in space and crew them.

300 years is a long time indeed, time for insignificant nations to become super powers or for super powers to fall in to obscurity.

 

[rust]

The Normans who won in 1066 and set themselves up as rulers of England were from Normandy and considered themselves very different to the French. Until foolish kings squandered it England commanded half of France, Calais was the last English City in France to be taken back by the French.

Well, actually, the Normans who had conquered England were
soon replaced by the Angevins, a purely French dynasty from
Anjou, who then ruled England as the Plantagenets (a French
name, by the way) for more than 300 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angevins

So, not England commanded half of France, a French noble hou-
se ruled England and fought another French noble house for the
rule of parts of France. As an example of how French the Planta-
genets were, the most famous of them - Richard the Lionheart -
did not even speak English at all. :wink:

 

[2330ADUSA1]

Well debating what "might" happen is all well and good, but all we have is the here and now, and currently France is not the super power in any way or form. America is and I do not forsee that changing and when/if the US does fall then the rest of the world will tumble along with us.

In my own campaign starting 2330 - May 2nd, citizen in the former states that were taken by Mexico revolted and started a rebellion as asked for aid from the US. On May 4rd the US moved troops into those former states and reclaimed them and announced it was coming to the aid of it's former people that asked for help. The Mexican Army tried to respond, but we met with the full combined forces of the American forces a lightning war began. The rest of the world was told to stay out of it as American Space battleships took up orbit above the Earth. On May 5th the US told Mexico to surrender or they would begin plantary bombardment of the Mexican nation. The mexican nation refused and attacked the forces of America, and the US began plantary bombardment of non-civilian targets. By the end of that day Mexico surrendered, and America had reclaimed her former states again. They also occupied and controlled Mexico, and so begins the long wars. This was the first time anyone had ever seen Plasma Beam Bay weapons ever used, and the amount f damage and their effect was frightening. Add to that the US used Hunter/Kill Warbots for the first time too, only added to the fear factor as well. A new page had turned in the world and the Dark America was born.

Now remember this just a game and the history we are all quibbling about is only made up. To each their own, and campaigning is done best when the players and GMs are pushed to create their own unique campaigns based on their own creative choices. So regardless of what we disagree on, it is the intent to have a good time and entertain that is the real goal here


Penn

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

What I like about 2300AD Twilight is that it is perfectly possible to imagine a future that is whatever the Referee wants it to be.

The original authors felt that France would be the first country in Europe to regain international importance.

My personal history of 2300 has the US much more fragmented and quite a few other changes to the world map, but still basically like 2300.

Someone else envisiions the US remaining (or regaining) dominance through technology.

ALL of these are perfectly acceptable and "possible". Heck, you could have a situation where Lithuania (a baltic country formerly part of the Soviet Union) recovers first and comes to dominate north-eastern Europe and then expands internationally and becomes a major world power and a Tier I country in 2300.

They did it in the 13th century, they could do it again (there is a statue of a Lithuanian king in Kiev for example).

YOUR GAME ___ YOUR HISTORY