2008

[EDG]

Is there any way the worldbuilding stuff could be left entirely until the Scout book, allowing it to be looked at, overhauled, and give the experts their extensive and long-worded opinions?

Tiresome snark aside :roll:, if there's no worldbuilding in the core book then Mongoose are releasing an incomplete corebook - if you have a SF game then you need some rules to build the setting. I don't think people will really go for a game that doesn't have any means to do that (particularly given that the idea is that the game is released as OGL too).

I'd rather see the corebook delayed by a few months to get everything sorted out (not just worldbuilding) than have this crazy rush to meet a deadline that is already obviously turning out to be impractical.

 

[GamerDude]

Tiresome snark aside :roll:, if there's no worldbuilding in the core book then Mongoose are releasing an incomplete corebook - if you have a SF game then you need some rules to build the setting. I don't think people will really go for a game that doesn't have any means to do that (particularly given that the idea is that the game is released as OGL too).

The snark is there because you love taking the bait, and it's true... you love going overboard at times... but nuff' said, this aint' about you.

There is a publishing schedule here, T5 and MGT are supposedly coming out at about the same time (originally AT the same time). If the time isn't there to properly play test something then it should be left out.

I'd rather see the corebook delayed by a few months to get everything sorted out (not just worldbuilding) than have this crazy rush to meet a deadline that is already obviously turning out to be impractical.

unfortunately, we can't always be catered to. If the deadline can't be moved then I prefer quality over quantity. It's more realistic in that case to release what works than just jam it all in.

If you look at all this stuff about 'realistic' vs 'not' and ' keeping it simple' vs 'overly complex', a majority of it is more narrow vies from people overly worried about one small part of the overall system. Some people just want 'plug and play' some want lots of detail especially if it is in their area of expertise.\


Gar, how tightly is the release date of MGT linked to T5? can there be more time for testing such things as world building, since the CT books have undergone decades of actual playtesting and there are lots of people who have worked the system, have ideas and comments. If you can't do a play test of those rules or extend the publication deadline, can you open up those rules to indept comment from the people who have already torn them up? That would at least provide some measure of improvement in the rules and make all the experts happy.

 

[EDG]

There is a publishing schedule here, T5 and MGT are supposedly coming out at about the same time (originally AT the same time). If the time isn't there to properly play test something then it should be left out.

I thought that it was too ambitious to get this done in the alloted time when MGT was first announced (especially with a wide open playtest), and that suspicion seems to be validated here. There's still a lot of work to be done and it needs several more months to get it done in IMO. This is going to be the basis for Traveller for the foreseeable future, so it strikes me as imperative that there's enough time to get everything working properly during the design stage so it's not just another screwed-up translation of Traveller. Marc's had decades to work on T5, Mongoose have only had five months. It needs longer than that to get it right IMO.

(I don't see why it needs to be tied to T5 in the first place though, it sounds like T5 is going to be totally unlike MGT anyway...)

unfortunately, we can't always be catered to. If the deadline can't be moved then I prefer quality over quantity. It's more realistic in that case to release what works than just jam it all in.

It'd be a rules toolkit that is missing a fundamental set of tools to be able to run SF games. It'd be madness to not include a basic worldbuilding ruleset IMO, you'd have an incomplete game.

 

[captainjack23]

[

It'd be a rules toolkit that is missing a fundamental set of tools to be able to run SF games. It'd be madness to not include a basic worldbuilding ruleset IMO, you'd have an incomplete game.

I doubt that there'll be more time alloted than what there is now. I'd be disappointed if there weren't worldgen rules, too, and I'd be okay with LBB3 - but I sure wouldn't hate it if some polishing & fixing up occurred.
My suggestion, if you want it, since you feel that LBB3 can be improved, would be for you to develop the minimum you feel would pass the old LBB3 system and send it in well before the current deadline.

You could post it here, too if you want any input, but the main thing I'd say is to get it to Gar.


Cap

 

[EDG]

My suggestion, if you want it, since you feel that LBB3 can be improved, would be for you to develop the minimum you feel would pass the old LBB3 system and send it in well before the current deadline.

You could post it here, too if you want any input, but the main thing I'd say is to get it to Gar.

Gar did actually ask me if I could come up with the worldgen for MGT before the playtest started. I approached him first saying "I can help reality-check any system you come up with", which somehow turned into "would you be able to write the system for us?", but the fact is I didn't and don't have the time or inclination to write a full worldgen system for Mongoose - I've already got my hands full with other Traveller projects. I was assuming that they'd come up with their own system that I could then check over, but it seems like that's not going to happen (which I find both surprising and disappointing).

A basic system needs a lot more than just an atmosphere tweak, especially if it's going to be expanded later on. In fact I wouldn't even do a basic system until I got the full generation system figured out, then I'd simplify that down. The last thing this game needs is another mutually incompatible pair of rulesets (book 3 results are not consistent with book 6 results)... but there's no time to rectify that now.

 

[GamerDude]

It'd be a rules toolkit that is missing a fundamental set of tools to be able to run SF games. It'd be madness to not include a basic worldbuilding ruleset IMO, you'd have an incomplete game.

I doubt that there'll be more time alloted than what there is now. I'd be disappointed if there weren't worldgen rules, too, and I'd be okay with LBB3 - but I sure wouldn't hate it if some polishing & fixing up occurred.
My suggestion, if you want it, since you feel that LBB3 can be improved, would be for you to develop the minimum you feel would pass the old LBB3 system and send it in well before the current deadline.

You could post it here, too if you want any input, but the main thing I'd say is to get it to Gar.

Wasn't there something posted to the forums that was an improved, easy to use, more realistic and based on/for CT? Why isn't that already being considered?

 

[captainjack23]

[
A basic system needs a lot more than just an atmosphere tweak, especially if it's going to be expanded later on. In fact I wouldn't even do a basic system until I got the full generation system figured out, then I'd simplify that down. The last thing this game needs is another mutually incompatible pair of rulesets (book 3 results are not consistent with book 6 results)... but there's no time to rectify that now.

Well, could you post a summary of what you see as the most glaring problems with the LBB3 system ?

 

[captainjack23]

Wasn't there something posted to the forums that was an improved, easy to use, more realistic and based on/for CT? Why isn't that already being considered?

Well, I don't remember a worldgen sytem being discussed with actual systems presented. Not that that means it doesn't exist. If you find one, you may consider bringing it back to our attention.....

 

[captainjack23]

I don't know if there'll be a version 4. I'm currently reorganising my plan from 'a frantic week of rewriting' to 'a month of rewriting, polishing, expanding and fiddling'. I'll also need to consult with Chris.

Comments and playtesting welcome on all areas, but play with ships (ignoring the power ****-up - assume that a plant X can run drive X and have power to spare for at least some guns),

Okay. So, if we take the Mdrive table, match up the letters with the Powerplant, would setting the power production at about 110%-120% (with a minimum of 1 extra PP assumed for basic ship sytems) of the M requirement be a approximation of what you are looking at ?

space combat, and general adventuring. What do you find yourself lacking when you run a game? What extra stuff do you wish the book had in the middle of a game?

Movement for the space combat rules.
World generation. Social and planetology, that is.
Some more power numbers for shipboard hardware.
Sysgen (on a basic level)
Trade info(basic) : goods, prices, availability, some clue as to demand.

 

[EDG]

Well, could you post a summary of what you see as the most glaring problems with the LBB3 system ?

See: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32646 , it's better off in its own thread.

 

[Dyrewulf]

I know the topic is moved but:

I would rather have a Core Rule book that is capable of providing the building blocks for chargen...and maybe ship gen...and be pretty much bug free...waiting for a supplement to come out to have the world gen stuff. I mean...I know realism is nice and all...but do you REALLY need the world gen stuff to run a game? You can't use your imagination to create a world on the fly based on what you are running?
"As your ship jumps in system, you are welcomed by the sight of a small blue and green planet. At both poles you can see that it is ice capped and it appears that the oceans cover around 60% of the planets surface."
How in the world did I do that???
<Insert whispered secret>
IMAGINATION
Look, no world generator...

 

[EDG]

"As your ship jumps in system, you are welcomed by the sight of a small blue and green planet. At both poles you can see that it is ice capped and it appears that the oceans cover around 60% of the planets surface."
How in the world did I do that???
<Insert whispered secret>
IMAGINATION
Look, no world generator...

By that logic, you don't need a character generator or a ship generator either...

All previous versions of Traveller have included world generation in the core rules (MT and TNE even included extended system generation), so clearly previous authors never considered it to be "optional". I see no reason why MGT should be the first to leave it out of the core rules completely.

 

[Dyrewulf]

By that logic, you don't need a character generator or a ship generator either...

All previous versions of Traveller have included world generation in the core rules (MT and TNE even included extended system generation), so clearly previous authors never considered it to be "optional". I see no reason why MGT should be the first to leave it out of the core rules completely.

By any logic then you don't need the book or friends sitting around a table to play. A setting generator is not needed to play the game, the gms imagination can and should do the trick if need be...the character is important however...All I am saying, which you attempted to blow out of the water is that the world gen is NOT integral to playing Traveller or the main book...I would rather them take their time and dedicate other books to worldgen rather than something rushed and broken. Yes it was in the original...I totally agree that it should be apart of the game...but MGT is not CT...nor MT or any of the T**.
Worldgen is not as integral as Chargen or Starshipgen...combat or space combat...but it is imortant...but it CAN wait.

 

[EDG]

And I'm saying that I strongly disagree with your opinion that worldgen is not an essential part of the game. IMO it is as integral as the game engine, the chargen, and the shipgen routines.

This isn't the 1970s anymore, where people were fine with having very little information provided to them and "using their imagination". Modern gamers have different expectations from games nowadays, and I'm pretty sure that failing to provide basic tools to build a setting with the corebook would not go down well. (Also, making stuff up off the top of your head means that there tends to be a lot less consistency in the setting).

 

[Dyrewulf]

I am not saying it isn't important...but to play a game...rpg...you need characters...heck you technically don't need ships (TO START OUT)...and it doesn't take much to come up with a setting to start your game out.
Our playtesting sessions have all been on planets off the top of our heads...as we are testing other rules...and all of our games...which has had 3 gms (we are each taking turns running) have done a great job painting a picture of not only the planet they may be on...but the solar system...didn't take a world generator for it either.
Mongoose has said they are not sure they will be able to add it to the main book...so your choices are somewhat limited...use their book for everything but the world gen and what ever system you liked best for the worldgen...which I am sure most people will do while waiting for the other books...or...well I guess thats the only option...well there is beating your head on your keyboard until it breaks, but that really doesn't solve the problem.
I mean...cone on...now that I think about it, I CAN'T believe you actually said that chargen isn't important...it is THE most important part of the game...without characters your lil planet will be very very lonely...without characters your ships will be very lonely...ALL I said was...while we wait for them to look at the system, use your bloody imagination...and use the internet or other media sources like these forums to build your settings to YOUR satisfaction.
I swear there is no pleasing people sometimes.

 

[crazy_cat]

Just my quick opinion - feel free to ignore it if you want.

I will read the world generation system if it is in the core book, but probably not in any great detail other tahn to mine for ideas - and I might conceivably buy a book dedicated to world generation and creating 'realistic' stellar systems and planets and populations etc etc (again for background reading and probably based on recommednations or a browse in my FLGS before purchasing)

What I wont do is use any of this to actually randomly develop a sector, or subsector or even a system. I'll either buy a campaign setting in which to game, or more likely make one up so that it fits to the game I envisage playing, and then flesh out the details as I go along.

To my mind putting this much effort into debating the relative merits of how to generate what is basically 'make believe' and the background window dressing to a game is to take all the fun out of the game and replace it with something that approaches theoretical astrophysics - I play RPGs for fun, I have a job for number crunching and actual work.

Obviously this is all IMHO and YMMV etc etc...

 

[pasuuli]

Really, the meat of the game is with the character and what skills he has, and how he uses them. The rest is almost just extra. You can have a list of totally un-designed starships with just enough info to know which is good at what, and the game is fine, just like you can have a world in orbit around a giant green star, with the world completely covered in a gigantic sprawling mega-city, not one acre of open ground, and the game is fine.

Unless your game requires technical details as part of the plot, of course.

 

[EDG]

I mean...cone on...now that I think about it, I CAN'T believe you actually said that chargen isn't important

I never said that at all. I said that IMO worldgen was as critical a part of a scifi game as chargen and shipgen (and the technologies). I do not agree for a second that it's something that is expendable or can be dismissed for later, especially not because people are still labouring under the mistaken impression that they'd need to learn "theoretical physics" or astrophysics to understand it (I have always maintained that the end user doesn't need any of that kind of prior knowledge at all, all they need to do is roll dice and look at tables. If explanation is required it'll be given in the text. The designers would need some understanding so they can create a system that works, but not the end user).

Hell, the ship design systems are arguably as complex as (or even more complex than) world design, but nobody complains about how they need to be a naval engineer or something to be able to understand them. So why use such spurious logic for worldgen?

 

[AKAramis]

One of my players biggest complaints over the years about WEG's Star Wars was the lack of ability to design/adjust starships (other than with character's experience points).

For some forms of SciFi gaming, it works to have pregens only; for others, it does not.

In any case, ship operations rules need to be consistent and are core to the Traveller paradigm... and thus need to be in the Traveller core book.

Having such rules is really helped by a design system.

 

[EDG]

At the very least - absolute minimum - I'd expect there to be a predesigned subsector or quadrant in the corebook for people to adventure in out of the box if there isn't a worldgen system.

That would mitigate the loss of a proper world design system somewhat. But that subsector still has to be designed using it, or it'll be inconsistent with later rules.