Yet another ship poll, the DEMOS!
- Thread starter Greg Smith
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
I'll take one over a Demos. I have a game with Triggy tomorrow at 5 battle, and I don't plan to use any Demos. I prefer the Vorchan. Only time I use Demos is against Minbari, barring the EA-Centauri War weekend.
I'd drop the Ion Cannon by 4AD but it certainly needs a drop of at least 2AD. At the moment it's one of the 2-3 broken ships in the game.
Plaing David today - still trying to decide on taking EA or Minbari... I haven't taken the boneheads in a while but EA are always a lot of fun
Plaing David today - still trying to decide on taking EA or Minbari... I haven't taken the boneheads in a while but EA are always a lot of fun
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Oh leave it be. It's fine as is. 
One question for David, Anla Shok' - is there a ship in the game you have an issue with? I know I've seen a number of your group in the various broken ship threads saying each ship is okay as is.
On topic - I agree with Triggy on the 4 AD, the extra range is a big deal, so is the interceptor but you can't drop that due to show evidence. While the PA may do more total damage vs higher hull targets, the precise helps stack up critical effects, which is often more determinate of victory than total damage output. Yes its slow loading but your taking less return fire due to range.
LDtD commented that SA's don't break ships. I have to disagree with this statement. Ease of use can absolutely break ships. The Targrath in first ed was absolutely broken due to CAF. You can't look at a ship that can add 50% to its firepower and say that it's not relevent, espcially when a number of ships cannot do this. If all ships had equal use for SAs I would agree, but the reality of the game is that certain ships gain alot out of using SAs and certain ships gain nothing, or only barely cover a glaring weakness. That has to be taken into accoutn as part of the balance process. If centauri beams in first ed had not been able to CAF you would not have heard half the complaints.
Ripple
On topic - I agree with Triggy on the 4 AD, the extra range is a big deal, so is the interceptor but you can't drop that due to show evidence. While the PA may do more total damage vs higher hull targets, the precise helps stack up critical effects, which is often more determinate of victory than total damage output. Yes its slow loading but your taking less return fire due to range.
LDtD commented that SA's don't break ships. I have to disagree with this statement. Ease of use can absolutely break ships. The Targrath in first ed was absolutely broken due to CAF. You can't look at a ship that can add 50% to its firepower and say that it's not relevent, espcially when a number of ships cannot do this. If all ships had equal use for SAs I would agree, but the reality of the game is that certain ships gain alot out of using SAs and certain ships gain nothing, or only barely cover a glaring weakness. That has to be taken into accoutn as part of the balance process. If centauri beams in first ed had not been able to CAF you would not have heard half the complaints.
Ripple
The demos is far from a broken ship. It is fine as is. it just fits a different role to the vorchan. besides 20" range is nothing compared to most fleets anyway, it's one of the few mid-long range abilities centauri can feild. it's also easy as pie to destroy.
The original argument I saw on these forums was to nerf it so that there would be more choice between vorchan's and demos, but both ships do serve different rolls and the choice shouldn't always be a demos, maybe you want a few more Demos than vorchas, but there is still reasson for the vorchan....
And compared to other skirmish level ships from the other races, again it's not broken, top end i could agree with but broken no.
The original argument I saw on these forums was to nerf it so that there would be more choice between vorchan's and demos, but both ships do serve different rolls and the choice shouldn't always be a demos, maybe you want a few more Demos than vorchas, but there is still reasson for the vorchan....
And compared to other skirmish level ships from the other races, again it's not broken, top end i could agree with but broken no.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Good God, people are actually listening to me... :shock:
I have to say, if you slash the ion cannon down to 6AD it becomes a much less significant weapon. It already struggles to hurt high-hull targets and interceptors can shrug off the hits you do get in many cases. You'd be a lot more dependant on the torpedoes for your ship-killing attacks and that's slow-loading. I think the Demos would be come much less attractive if the ion cannon dropped to 6AD.
I have to say, if you slash the ion cannon down to 6AD it becomes a much less significant weapon. It already struggles to hurt high-hull targets and interceptors can shrug off the hits you do get in many cases. You'd be a lot more dependant on the torpedoes for your ship-killing attacks and that's slow-loading. I think the Demos would be come much less attractive if the ion cannon dropped to 6AD.
I do agree that the 6AD changes the ship killing mix a lot, but the interceptor is huge, as you centauri types are quick to point out nowdays. But what happens if you aren't facing an interceptor? While most races can get them with fighters, they are hardly completely universal, and if they are holding good fighters back to intercept, as a demos pilot you should be happy.
Range 20 on a skirmish hull is fairly good range. Most skirmish ships are shorter... or bore sighted in some close cases.
The vorchan and the demos don't perform significantly different roles in many games, as is not truly relevant to the discussion of is the Demos just too good. The Vorchan is considered top end, and the demos is better... almost by definition you've stepped across a line.
Just saying its ion canon bank should be smaller than the demos, as the heavy weapons are a straight swap but the demos then gets the interceptor. You need to balance that advantage, as there is no more wiggle room in skirmish to just top the Vorchan.
Ripple
Range 20 on a skirmish hull is fairly good range. Most skirmish ships are shorter... or bore sighted in some close cases.
The vorchan and the demos don't perform significantly different roles in many games, as is not truly relevant to the discussion of is the Demos just too good. The Vorchan is considered top end, and the demos is better... almost by definition you've stepped across a line.
Just saying its ion canon bank should be smaller than the demos, as the heavy weapons are a straight swap but the demos then gets the interceptor. You need to balance that advantage, as there is no more wiggle room in skirmish to just top the Vorchan.
Ripple
At the moment the Demos's weapons are about equivalent to the Vorchan's. However, as Ripple says, the Interceptor is a huge deal, and therefore something needs to give. 4AD is a lot but it's also in line with making it a tough choice between the two. Being able to Close Blast Doors for "free" whilst the torpedoes are reloading is a big deal too.
He also says that they need to fill different roles and with less firepower but with an Interceptor this would be the case - take the Demos against EA, Centauri and League and take the Vorchan against Ancients, Minbari and Drakh. If you don't know who you're fighting then you have a choice.
He also says that they need to fill different roles and with less firepower but with an Interceptor this would be the case - take the Demos against EA, Centauri and League and take the Vorchan against Ancients, Minbari and Drakh. If you don't know who you're fighting then you have a choice.
i think with the speed of the ships the range is not as much a major factor. i think the demos needs to lose 2AD but not more than that or it will go overlooked. the balancing factor between the interceptor and no interceptor is the demos weapon is slow loading. yes you can CBD but the vorchan can fire the plasma every turn.
eldiablito
Mongoose
I'm of the opinion that it is just a LITTLE too good. Drop the AD a touch and keep it a skirmish or raise the AD a little and raise it to a raid.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Ripple said:
Well, since you are so concerned about it, just one ship really. Everything else is pretty much within the envelope of acceptability. Is there a ship that you don't have an issue with? ;>
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
I have eight sizable fleets and one I will call the mixed League collage. I have played with most of the ships and have had most used against me. My Companions (if Alexanders can be capitolized, why not mine?) have three fleets in their collection that I don't own. While some ships are more, or much more formidable than others, I've managed to put a hurt on or been hurt by them.akenatum said:
And the only one that really bothers me is.........(dramatic drumroll)
The Dag'Kar. Goofy, yes? I use it but I have seen it misused in mass quantity. Just a bit too much firepower for so small a ship. Even with slow loading, it's a monster. It is not so much the ship as the nature of energy mines. And in quantity this ship is more than a pain. And no, this isn't an excuse to start a rant on Dag'Kars
Foxmeister
Mongoose
David said:The Dag'Kar. Goofy, yes? I use it but I have seen it misused in mass quantity. Just a bit too much firepower for so small a ship. Even with slow loading, it's a monster. It is not so much the ship as the nature of energy mines. And in quantity this ship is more than a pain. And no, this isn't an excuse to start a rant on Dag'Kars
This does prompt me to bring up my own reservations with certain e-mines in the game - and most them belong to my own fleet!
Simply put, triple damage AP e-mines don't seem quite right to me. Ok, an e-mine can't critical and that's fine in and of itself, but why then do they get AP and TD? Surely that's a disproportionate amount of damage for a weapon that can't damage a critical system?
As you say, a single Dag'Kar on its own isn't a problem, as they are hull 4 and comparatively weak so they seldom last long. However, even though the e-mines are SL, you still have 4 AD of precise SAP ion torp, making the ship another one that gains a "free" benefit from CBD.
Just off the top of my head, I wouldn't mind seeing something more like a "mini-beam" mechanic (i.e. a straight 4+ to hit) rather than AP as it shouldn't really be any easier to hit smaller ships than larger ones, but I would drop the TD damage trait and either replace it with more AD and/or DD at best, as well as removing one-shotters and making all e-mines slow loading. In addition, I really can't see how this weapon system can realistically deploy to such effect at range - I'd advocate a maximum 20" range for e-mines. I'd possibly also be inclined to look at letting ships other than fighters dodge e-mine "hits" if they have the dodge trait.
I'm not really sure if something needs changing here, but I do find something about e-mines troubling. None of these suggestions are particularly serious - more random thoughts than anything else!
Sorry for taking this O/T!
Regards,
Dave
I am quite literally amazed more of you don't find the Demos to be totally broken. It is quite literally one of the two most potent skirmish level ships in the game. It is fast, manuverable, high close-in and potent ranged firepower. Plus an incterceptor!
You can concentrate fire with its torpedos, then fly away or close blast doors while they re-load. And its speed aloows it go jsutabout anywhere you need it to go.
I don't think the number of attack dice on their close support weaponry makes much difference - they are rarely needed. I would quite happily still take them if they had NO ion canons. And I'd gladly play a five point battle taking ONLY demos and challenge anyone to beat me.
They are broken broken broken.
You can concentrate fire with its torpedos, then fly away or close blast doors while they re-load. And its speed aloows it go jsutabout anywhere you need it to go.
I don't think the number of attack dice on their close support weaponry makes much difference - they are rarely needed. I would quite happily still take them if they had NO ion canons. And I'd gladly play a five point battle taking ONLY demos and challenge anyone to beat me.
They are broken broken broken.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Rubbish. Utter drivel. If the Demos is broken so it every ship with a precise weapon at 20". Don't forget, some of those ships don't have slow-loading on those weapons.
