Yet another ship poll, the DEMOS!

[GhostRecon]

Rubbish. Utter drivel. If the Demos is broken so it every ship with a precise weapon at 20". Don't forget, some of those ships don't have slow-loading on those weapons.

Except that, unlike these other ships, the Demos has 10 AD of DD, TL shots at 12 inch range, 1 interceptor, 14 speed, 2x45A turns.

So, unlike the majority of skirmish, raid, and patrol ships with such precise weapons at 20 inch range, the Demos can afford to fire away, then next turn go CBD, and make itself even harder to kill. And 6 AD of P, SL, SAP is nothing to laugh at either. 6 AD of P, SL, SAP at 20 inches followed up by a barrage of 10 AD of DD, TL shots is much more impressive.

And its fast enough, and maneuverable enough, that it can attack ships at virtually any corner of the battlespace.

 

[David Anla Shok']

I am quite literally amazed more of you don't find the Demos to be totally broken. It is quite literally one of the two most potent skirmish level ships in the game. It is fast, manuverable, high close-in and potent ranged firepower. Plus an incterceptor!

You can concentrate fire with its torpedos, then fly away or close blast doors while they re-load. And its speed aloows it go jsutabout anywhere you need it to go.

I don't think the number of attack dice on their close support weaponry makes much difference - they are rarely needed. I would quite happily still take them if they had NO ion canons. And I'd gladly play a five point battle taking ONLY demos and challenge anyone to beat me.

They are broken broken broken.

Nasty? Yes. Dangerous? Yes. Broken? I don't think so....

 

[David Anla Shok']

The Dag'Kar. Goofy, yes? I use it but I have seen it misused in mass quantity. Just a bit too much firepower for so small a ship. Even with slow loading, it's a monster. It is not so much the ship as the nature of energy mines. And in quantity this ship is more than a pain. And no, this isn't an excuse to start a rant on Dag'Kars

This does prompt me to bring up my own reservations with certain e-mines in the game - and most them belong to my own fleet!

Simply put, triple damage AP e-mines don't seem quite right to me. Ok, an e-mine can't critical and that's fine in and of itself, but why then do they get AP and TD? Surely that's a disproportionate amount of damage for a weapon that can't damage a critical system?

As you say, a single Dag'Kar on its own isn't a problem, as they are hull 4 and comparatively weak so they seldom last long. However, even though the e-mines are SL, you still have 4 AD of precise SAP ion torp, making the ship another one that gains a "free" benefit from CBD.

Just off the top of my head, I wouldn't mind seeing something more like a "mini-beam" mechanic (i.e. a straight 4+ to hit) rather than AP as it shouldn't really be any easier to hit smaller ships than larger ones, but I would drop the TD damage trait and either replace it with more AD and/or DD at best, as well as removing one-shotters and making all e-mines slow loading. In addition, I really can't see how this weapon system can realistically deploy to such effect at range - I'd advocate a maximum 20" range for e-mines. I'd possibly also be inclined to look at letting ships other than fighters dodge e-mine "hits" if they have the dodge trait.

I'm not really sure if something needs changing here, but I do find something about e-mines troubling. None of these suggestions are particularly serious - more random thoughts than anything else!

Sorry for taking this O/T!

Regards,

Dave

We (the local mob) have mused on the emine for a while. Our concensus is that the emine needs to be targetted (no more shooting into space for the jollies of it), needs variable damage based on distance from the target, and needs to be less "accurate", ie add a deviation variable to the point of impact/detonation. We haven't played this out yet but it is on the planning table.

 

[Karhedron]

I am quite literally amazed more of you don't find the Demos to be totally broken. It is quite literally one of the two most potent skirmish level ships in the game. It is fast, manuverable, high close-in and potent ranged firepower. Plus an incterceptor!

You can concentrate fire with its torpedos, then fly away or close blast doors while they re-load. And its speed aloows it go jsutabout anywhere you need it to go.

I don't think the number of attack dice on their close support weaponry makes much difference - they are rarely needed. I would quite happily still take them if they had NO ion canons. And I'd gladly play a five point battle taking ONLY demos and challenge anyone to beat me.

They are broken broken broken.

Nasty? Yes. Dangerous? Yes. Broken? I don't think so....

I have to come in with Zulu01 here. You admit the Demos is nasty and dangerous. Moreso than other skirmish ships. This is where the the granularity of the PL system as opposed to a points based system causes problems. The Demos is a stronger choice than any other skirmish PL ship I can think of. It has the firepower to damage large targets. It has the speed and manouvrability to ensure it can usually shoot at what it wants and it is also tougher than most skirmish PL ships.

Simply put, if the Demos is better than any other skirmish PL ship then by definition it is broken since all skirmish PL ships should be equal (not identical but equal).

I have yet to see a Demos horde fleet convincingly beaten. I am planning to try breaching pods but that is resorting to a paper-scissors-stone solution. If the Demos is just another skirmish PL ship then most races should be able to put together a fleet of skirmish PL ships that should be able to do just as well. Simply put, I have never seen it done and I am afraid I doubt it can be.

Keep watching the tournement scene as this is the best place to see which ships are overpowered. Matt has already admitted that Gaim seem to be doing disproportionally well in tournements which is confirmation of what many people on this board seem to feel. I think the results will show the Demos hunting pack will consistently appear in the top rankings.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

What's so terribly overpowered about it? Its speed? The slow-loading torpedo? A mighty six dice of it? Six single damage dice? That can be intercepted?

 

[Target]

Olympus can match them
Strikehawks are a match with the sky serpent & dodge. Horde of these vs Horde of Demos will probably end bad for the demos
The Chronos, Brikorta, Rail Hyperions, Sags,Torothas, Thentus, Xeels will give them a fair go.
The Vree Xaars i would guess that they would do very well.
I have a lot problems with Olympii & probably Chronos. Olympus can ignore interceptors with it's missles (variants) & once among them it's carnage. Chronos with it's hull 6 & interceptors 2 will make for very tough fight. Basically any ship with turrets is going to hurt them bad.
So the Xeel with it's fighters, long ranged turreted weapon & it's as manuverable as hell & speed not to shabby probaby will take them out.

 

[Greg Smith]

It has similar firepower to the Olympus, less that the Artemis. But unlike those two ships it is concentrated into one arc. Both of those two ships are 50% slower and not agile. Both of those two ships can't use close blast doors every other turn without a significant loss of firepower.

A big part of the problem is that it is better than the Vorchan - more AD on the ion cannons and an interceptor to boot.

 

[Target]

Yes the extra ion cannon AD have to go. The speed & agility don't matter so much cause of the turret.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Yes the extra ion cannon AD have to go.

Which is what the majority of us agree on...

 

[David Anla Shok']

Yes the extra ion cannon AD have to go.

Which is what the majority of us agree on...

Depends on which side of the muzzle you are on. ;>

 

[akenatum]

Honestly your all kicking up too much of a fuss...

Given a choice of 1 skirmish level ship to take i would take the vorchan any day over the demos... in fleet engagements it's about 50/50 the demos is nice but loosing half your firepower every other turn is not good, that's why it's ion cannons are buffed up a bit over the vorchan, and also why it has the interceptor i think....

So it can close blast doors but with the speeds of the ships that's hardly an issue, so that's a mute point and the vorchan can be pumping the damage every turn when in range instead of on off....

The demos is a nice starter ship but the closer and longer the fight goes the more a vorchan is a better choice.... Besides there are better actions to be doing than CBD every other turn.

In regards to fighting other ships i'd still prefer my vorchan for the same reasson above that it pumps it's fire every turn, instead of having to be sidelined with half my weapons every second turn....

And they are still fragile hp wise... it really doesn't take a lot to knock them out of the sky, even if they are more survivable than a vorchan.

 

[katadder]

19HP at skirmish isnt fragile, its more than any of the EA dedicated skirmish ships and only 1 behind narn ships like the ka'toc.

demos are always on CBD after firing the torps, there is no better SA for them.

really as most people have said it does need its AD to come down to the same as the vorchan on the ion cannons.

 

[akenatum]

I much prefer doing other things than cbd usually, and 19 points is fragile, hell look at EA ships narn ships isa they all have more than it for hp at skirmish, hell the minbari are low on hp and they got close at 16 abbai beat it when you factor sheilds, brakiri have higher h on some skirmish...

It may not be the most fragile of skirmish ships but it's by no means a survivor...

Ea have sag's and assault hyperions, which i don't know why your counting them? as they are great.

 

[David Anla Shok']

19HP at skirmish isnt fragile, its more than any of the EA dedicated skirmish ships and only 1 behind narn ships like the ka'toc.

demos are always on CBD after firing the torps, there is no better SA for them.

really as most people have said it does need its AD to come down to the same as the vorchan on the ion cannons.

I don't know about the ion cannon AD "needing" to come down but I would have expected there to be some rationalization for the increase. Not that it is really necessary. Most of this gnashing of teeth is "much ado about nothing"

 

[akenatum]

19HP at skirmish isnt fragile, its more than any of the EA dedicated skirmish ships and only 1 behind narn ships like the ka'toc.

demos are always on CBD after firing the torps, there is no better SA for them.

really as most people have said it does need its AD to come down to the same as the vorchan on the ion cannons.

I don't know about the ion cannon AD "needing" to come down but I would have expected there to be some rationalization for the increase. Not that it is really necessary. Most of this gnashing of teeth is "much ado about nothing"

Missiles use up less power than matter cannons, and missiles re also every other turn so the power reserves for them are built up, allowing a higher power flow to be constantly shunted to the ion canons to allow for a higher rate of fire....

kidding, I really think the extra ad are there to help it along on the turns it's running at less fire power than the vorchan.

 

[David Anla Shok']

19HP at skirmish isnt fragile, its more than any of the EA dedicated skirmish ships and only 1 behind narn ships like the ka'toc.

demos are always on CBD after firing the torps, there is no better SA for them.

really as most people have said it does need its AD to come down to the same as the vorchan on the ion cannons.

I don't know about the ion cannon AD "needing" to come down but I would have expected there to be some rationalization for the increase. Not that it is really necessary. Most of this gnashing of teeth is "much ado about nothing"

Missiles use up less power than matter cannons, and missiles re also every other turn so the power reserves for them are built up, allowing a higher power flow to be constantly shunted to the ion canons to allow for a higher rate of fire....

kidding, I really think the extra ad are there to help it along on the turns it's running at less fire power than the vorchan.

Yeah, or they replaced the ACME ion cannon for newer Brand X ones.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

It is a much newer ship class. Same basic hull but you'd expect revamped systems and more advanced weapons in the new version. The Vorchan was in service before the Dilgar War, but the Demos didn't become available until a century later.

 

[David Anla Shok']

It is a much newer ship class. Same basic hull but you'd expect revamped systems and more advanced weapons in the new version. The Vorchan was in service before the Dilgar War, but the Demos didn't become available until a century later.

Agreed. So the extra AD bump isn't without cause.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Either that, or just say the upgraded fire control sensors allows the ion cannons to be used as interceptors. That's what we see on screen, the dorsal turret firing to shoot down missiles.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Either that, or just say the upgraded fire control sensors allows the ion cannons to be used as interceptors. That's what we see on screen, the dorsal turret firing to shoot down missiles.

That would be very useful. Interceptors and or anti fighter.