Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If you try deconstructing Traveller's missile weapon systems, which I have, you come face to face with a lot of discrepancies, which, if charitable, you can attribute to legacy baggage.
Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?
- Thread starter k0k0pelli
- Start date
Regarding merchants, they don't design their ships to fight and win. They design their ships to make it possible to deter or escape combat. So they are going to use beam lasers because they are the most cost effective option. They are less expensive than pulse lasers or missiles. They are more accurate at ranges where they are likely to be forced to fight instead of being able to run for it. And they can be used to defend the ship from missiles. Missiles cost more upfront. They cost an enormous amount to actually use.
Using your missiles will probably cost you more than just giving them your cargo (which is probably insured anyway). In the unlikely event that the pirates actually seize the ship (which requires that they can catch you, take control of the ship, get your slow ass merchant to somewhere it can refuel to jump (because if you had fuel, you would have jumped..), all before the SDBs show up. That's not likely. And if they do, you can probably ransom the ship and crew for a reasonable amount of money.
Using your missiles will probably cost you more than just giving them your cargo (which is probably insured anyway). In the unlikely event that the pirates actually seize the ship (which requires that they can catch you, take control of the ship, get your slow ass merchant to somewhere it can refuel to jump (because if you had fuel, you would have jumped..), all before the SDBs show up. That's not likely. And if they do, you can probably ransom the ship and crew for a reasonable amount of money.
I am well aware that they could easily (and probably should) work like Star Fleet Battle's drones. But that isn't how the rules work. And I suspect that if the rules were changed so that they worked like that, then they'd probably make changes to how "fixed mounts" work on starships.
got it, ty. We interpreted the rules differently but if I ever get to play again I will take it into account.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
I follow the understanding of the beta playtest in '15-'16. The text may have changed in the 2022 edition.
A missile launch is not an attack:
The missile salvo attacks when it has reached the target. There is no attack or attack roll to launch missiles.
A dogfight restrict attacks:
Launching missiles is still not an attack.
Missiles lose the Smart trait at Close range, but can still manoeuvre itself, just not as well:
They are not guided missiles, but fire-and-forget. You can't change the target of the salvo once the missile is launched.
And tangentially, Missile Racks have no stated range, nor effect on the range of the missile, so missiles launched from missile racks on firmpoints have the same range as any other identical missile.
I tend to disagree with the assessment that missiles launched from a fixed mount do not need to obey facing but if we want to debate that can it be on another thread?
p.s. if you use the new vector based rules, which I would, then facing does not matter period (missiles or fixed weapons) so there is that.
p.s. if you use the new vector based rules, which I would, then facing does not matter period (missiles or fixed weapons) so there is that.
Anyway, I don't know what the intended rule is. I know what is written. Personally, if I were designing the system, you wouldn't have missiles, energy weapons, and sandcasters using the same weapons platform in the first place. Even back in the day when missiles had turret launchers they weren't remotely like the turrets with the guns. VLS type systems is what a missile bay is, as far as I am aware.
Missiles should be LOAL. But "fixed mount" that takes 0 power and 0 space yet holds 12 missiles in some sort of astral pocket dimension and can be triggered by an unskilled guy doing something else at the same time shouldn't be a thing on a starship.
Missiles should be LOAL. But "fixed mount" that takes 0 power and 0 space yet holds 12 missiles in some sort of astral pocket dimension and can be triggered by an unskilled guy doing something else at the same time shouldn't be a thing on a starship.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
It's a game, it's highly simplified. There's a reason we're discussing MgT, not FF&S...
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
OK, sorry.
Sure, but it is still bad design to create an element that is designed to have advantages that are offset by disadvantages that are not actually factors in the game. Fixed Mounts work for small craft because the design intent is that small craft are dogfighting and there is a mechanic for making facing a thing in dogfighting (the you can't shoot unless you do well on that dogfighting roll).
Ship to ship combat doesn't use facing. There's no mechanic for determining if your supposedly limited system is actually limited. Further, the value of the advantage (no space and power) is magnified because there is a lot more things you can do with that space and power instead, like saving crew roles, having more cargo, etc and those things are luxuries not a mandatory 'cheat' to make the concept (such as light fighter) even work.
Personally, I don't allow fixed mounts to be used on starships because the rules don't support them, imho. However, I don't discuss concepts on the forums in terms of my personal house rules. But at this point, we don't even agree what the RAW is, so it isn't possible to continue the discussion about how the things would work based on the rules. *shrugs*
And an argument about what the rule actually is would be both off topic and not likely to lead to an agreement.
Bill Sheil
Cosmic Mongoose
But one thing that missiles will do is tie up the pirate's lasers in point defense and therefore reduce the incoming fire, therefore reducing damage and the risk of being disabled.
But in practice they would need to keep spamming missiles until they reach protection/escape which could be hours/game turns.
Bringing this back from the dead.
I've been down a reading wormhole on missile design, and decided to change how I use (well, let the players use...) missiles.
The way they are written in, especially in regard to close range or less and dog-fighting, implies basically no advance in guidance systems from those in use today at TL 7.5.
So:
1> I've scrapped the no smart trait at close range. If I'm buying smart missiles, they better be smart enough for me and my handy targeting software, to slap on a 2-3 second delay, were the missile just sits and wait's till it acquires a target. It doesn't really make sense that "it doesn't have time to acquire...". Maybe if a dogfight began from a standstill, and all the targets are buzzing around in tight little Star-Warsy circles, but most dogfights will occur while the bigger/slower ship, has been piling on the acceleration for the last half hour or so, trying to escape, and moving at very many KM/second.
and:
2> Missile rack, turret, bay, doesn't matter, you can fire as many missiles as you have loaded in one round. It's not like you have to reacquire your target after each shot. Designate your target, fire one, then second and all subsequent missiles can play follow the leader. You do have 6 minutes per turn after all.
I get this will definitely over-power missiles a bit, but a> they are supposed to be scary, and b> if you blow off your load (giggity) and don't take out your laser armed opponent, you're in serious trouble.
I've been down a reading wormhole on missile design, and decided to change how I use (well, let the players use...) missiles.
The way they are written in, especially in regard to close range or less and dog-fighting, implies basically no advance in guidance systems from those in use today at TL 7.5.
So:
1> I've scrapped the no smart trait at close range. If I'm buying smart missiles, they better be smart enough for me and my handy targeting software, to slap on a 2-3 second delay, were the missile just sits and wait's till it acquires a target. It doesn't really make sense that "it doesn't have time to acquire...". Maybe if a dogfight began from a standstill, and all the targets are buzzing around in tight little Star-Warsy circles, but most dogfights will occur while the bigger/slower ship, has been piling on the acceleration for the last half hour or so, trying to escape, and moving at very many KM/second.
and:
2> Missile rack, turret, bay, doesn't matter, you can fire as many missiles as you have loaded in one round. It's not like you have to reacquire your target after each shot. Designate your target, fire one, then second and all subsequent missiles can play follow the leader. You do have 6 minutes per turn after all.
I get this will definitely over-power missiles a bit, but a> they are supposed to be scary, and b> if you blow off your load (giggity) and don't take out your laser armed opponent, you're in serious trouble.
On another thread we were talking about actual robot brained missiles. These could have a significantly higher to hit number if loaded with the correct brain and software. They would also be significantly more expensive. I would argue however that such missiles would no longer be conducted through the normal missile rules (which presumes levels of fuel and that can "get lost") which wouldn't seem compatible with the highly complex systems they are supposed to be. The normal rules would need quiet some tweaking.
You best bet is a fast manoeuvre drive so you can "run Forest... run!"
You best bet is a fast manoeuvre drive so you can "run Forest... run!"
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Something for the next revision of High Guard to introduce.
Actually firm points ie fixed mount only hold 4 missiles and ships 100dt or more can’t use Firmpoints Highguard 2022
“A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint. A ship
of 35–69 tons has two Firmpoints and a ship of 70–99
tons has three Firmpoints. Beyond this size, ships use
Hardpoints. A firmpoint can hold only one weapon.”
Now if you had a odd dt ship say 150 dt I probably allow a turret and two firmpoints but that’s not RAW
“MISSILE RACK
Although missile racks require ammunition and the
warheads take time to reach distant targets, they
can be very powerful weapons and, when a range of
warheads is available, extremely versatile too. Each
turret with one or more missile racks holds 12 missiles
(missile racks on Firmpoints hold four missiles).
The missile rack listed in the table is equipped with
standard missiles
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If you want the practical weapon options for a Free/Far Trader than your going to run two type of weapons Beam Lasers (possibly up the TL to 12 and increase the range to long) and Sandcasters (Anti Personnel, Craff, Pebble, and Sand ). In general missiles are costly and more offensive than your typical merchant wants to be.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Specific missile launch systems can have slight tweaks that change some mechanics, whether that was the writer's intent, or not.
If you treat it like a vehicle that only needs to be given a target, you could throw it out the cargo hatch.
If you treat it like a vehicle that only needs to be given a target, you could throw it out the cargo hatch.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Payload bus plus parachute.
