Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes my presumption is an average pirate ship should be able to take out 2-5 missiles per beam laser turret (+4 for beam laser +1-2 for gunner, perhaps another +1-2 for fire control software.) so below 4 there is not a lot of point unless you can launch more salvos than the defending ship has beam laser turrets.

Neither the attack bonus for laser, nor the attack bonus for Fire Control applies to PD, as that isn't an Attack but a Reaction, by the book.

PD is basically the skill of the gunner, plus a bonus for multiple weapons in the turret.

With a skill of 2 and a triple turret (+2), a missile would be killed on 5+, or about 3 missiles on average.

 

[Condottiere]

1. If you're fighting every month, armed merchant cruiser, or in our case, March Har(ri)e(r).

2. If you don't have an attack/accuracy bonus differentiating differing types of laser weapon systems for point defence, it doesn't make much sense having a beam laser, since the laser drill is then just as effective.

3. Also, a sustained beam helps accuracy, since you can lead it onto the target(s).

 

[Vormaerin]

The best thing for the Subbie is the economy: four triple fixed mounts with missile racks cost no payload, and basically any idiot can launch the missiles, so no extra staterooms occupied.

Four laser turrets would cost 4 Dt, four staterooms à 4 Dt, for a total of 20 Dt less payload, and 52 Power you might not have over.


If you need to fight every month, missiles might not be the optimal choice, but then, neither is a Subbie...

A subbie has 135 power. It needs 40 for the M-Drive and can run 'essentials only' basic systems for 40 if a fight happens.. That leaves 55 for combat. They need 40 to jump, but then if you are ready to engage the jump drives, you don't need to worry about fighting anyway.

If you are going to play with fixed mounts on full starships, then the pilot can fire all 4 fixed mounts of beam lasers with the +4 to hit just as easily as they can the missiles (which are +1 unless your opponent is some kind of lowtech junk heap since the smart bonus is based on relative TL and subbies are TL12, which is about average). They just won't be able to do the PD reaction, but then you can't do PD with missiles either. But if your astrogator or steward is cross trained in gunner, they can do that.

 

[Vormaerin]

2. If you don't have an attack/accuracy bonus differentiating differing types of laser weapon systems for point defence, it doesn't make much sense having a beam laser, since the laser drill is then just as effective.

The beam laser is still significantly more accurate when making attacks, so that's valuable.

If you give the attack bonus to the beam laser on top of the multiple weapons per turret bonus, missiles become hot garbage.

PD destroys 1 missile per Effect of a standard test. Just assuming a roll of 7 and a gunner skill of 1 (the minimum to qualify for the job of gunner ), you are going destroy 2 missiles per triple turret. Which means a triple laser turret just about offsets a triple missile turret, but not quite.

If you add the beam laser bonus, now you are destroying 6 missiles on a roll of 7. So 1 triple turret completely negates two triple missile turrets. I do not believe that is a reasonable game design and I don't believe that it is the intent of the rule.


Addendum: I think that beam lasers having such a huge accuracy boost is a dubious design in general. Having a typical laser attack hit on a 4+ (assuming the gunner's skill and the pilot's evasion are offsetting) tends to make space combat too destructive for good gameplay. But that's a matter of taste and house rules.

 

[AndrewW]

[devil's advocate]The purpose of civilian weapons is not to vapourise pirates.
The purpose is to make the pirate think twice about attacking since the combat may take enough time that the local help can arrive and the pirate is forced to leave with nothing apart from battle damage repair costs.[/devil's advocate]

Don't forget if you can do enough damage to them to make it not worthwhile they may leave you alone.

 

[Vormaerin]

I suspect that if your subbie pops up 4 triple turrets, the pirate isn't going to care whether that's lasers or missiles when they decide it's better to do something else with their time.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

I agree with not using the attack bonus for PD. Point defense by it's very nature is considered a (panic) reaction.
The clincher for me, is that lasers are the ONLY weapon you can use for PD, so what's the +4 in relation to?
If I was being kind, I might allow +2 for beam lasers only.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A subbie has 135 power. It needs 40 for the M-Drive and can run 'essentials only' basic systems for 40 if a fight happens.. That leaves 55 for combat. They need 40 to jump, but then if you are ready to engage the jump drives, you don't need to worry about fighting anyway.

Yes, it's deliberately made with an oversized power plant, wasting space and money...

If you are going to play with fixed mounts on full starships, ...

Why wouldn't you? Why place missiles in turrets?

... then the pilot can fire all 4 fixed mounts of beam lasers with the +4 to hit just as easily as they can the missiles (which are +1 unless your opponent is some kind of lowtech junk heap since the smart bonus is based on relative TL and subbies are TL12, which is about average). They just won't be able to do the PD reaction, but then you can't do PD with missiles either. But if your astrogator or steward is cross trained in gunner, they can do that.

At Long range? With a DM-2 for doing two tasks at once? Lasers efficiency is highly dependent on Gunner skill, we'd want a single dedicated gunner at least, I think.

At Long range pulse lasers would attack with DM+2 and DM-2 for range, doing less damage than the missiles, about 2D+2 per turret vs 3 × 3 × 3D for multi-warhead missiles. Against 4 Armour that is about 5 damage for the laser turret vs. 58 damage for the missiles, presuming hits.

With lasers in fixed mounts we lose the ability to engage several targets (presumably, no great loss), engage Fighters in dogfights, and do PD.

You can buy TL-15 missiles for a nice DM for the missiles, a marginal benefit for small salvoes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I suspect that if your subbie pops up 4 triple turrets, the pirate isn't going to care whether that's lasers or missiles when they decide it's better to do something else with their time.

Agreed. Unless perhaps if the pirate had PA barbettes with superior range and Radiation trait (like the Harrier)?

 

[Sigtrygg]

How good is ECM at taking out missiles in MgT 2e?

 

[Vormaerin]

Agreed. Unless perhaps if the pirate had PA barbettes with superior range and Radiation trait (like the Harrier)?

If the pirate has a military ship, you should just surrender if you are not in a position to jump. Their advantage in firepower, electronics, combat related software, armor, and thrust is just overwhelming.

 

[Vormaerin]

How good is ECM at taking out missiles in MgT 2e?

Not that good without special equipment upgrades. It is a Difficult (aka 10+) Sensor Ops test to destroy the Effect level in number of missiles.

I'd have to double check, but I assume your sensor quality modifier applies as well. A ship only has one sensor station on the bridge by default for anything 7500 tons or less. And you have to have a crew person assigned to manning the sensor ops task to perform it.

 

[Condottiere]

There's a reason everyone tends to choose a pulse, rather than a beam, laser, when optimizing for a more aggressive approach.

Well, three.

Availability, range, and damage.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, it's deliberately made with an oversized power plant, wasting space and money...



Why wouldn't you? Why place missiles in turrets?



At Long range? With a DM-2 for doing two tasks at once? Lasers efficiency is highly dependent on Gunner skill, we'd want a single dedicated gunner at least, I think.

At Long range pulse lasers would attack with DM+2 and DM-2 for range, doing less damage than the missiles, about 2D+2 per turret vs 3 × 3 × 3D for multi-warhead missiles. Against 4 Armour that is about 5 damage for the laser turret vs. 58 damage for the missiles, presuming hits.

With lasers in fixed mounts we lose the ability to engage several targets (presumably, no great loss), engage Fighters in dogfights, and do PD.

You can buy TL-15 missiles for a nice DM for the missiles, a marginal benefit for small salvoes.

I don't see that there is any evidence that the Subbie is overpowered compared to other merchant vessels in design. But, yes, if you want to go with the bare minimum to jump with nothing else running, you could go down to 80 power. None of the merchants are designed that way, though.

You put missiles in turrets because you use vector movement and don't want to have to face your opponent to fire them?

And the -2 for the pilot to fire specifically a turret. It says "may fire the weapons in single turret at -2 on the attack roll or all the weapons noted as being in fixed mounts." So that -2 does not apply. Beam lasers also, for whatever reason, don't have Long range as an option. So firing at long range isn't an option. So if the guy sees your 4 triple mounts and keeps coming, then you've got 4 shots at 4+ to hit for 1d6+2 each. If you go with long range weapons, you'll have the more expensive pulse laser with only +2 to hit. So you'd get 4 shots at 8+ doing 2d6+4 each.

And you didn't spend Cr250000 to do it.

The inability to engage multiple targets and dogfight applies to missiles in fixed mounts too, so I'm not sure what relevance that has.

Maybe where you play your campaigns, there are TL 15 worlds laying around for easy availability of fancy missiles, but that's not true as a general rule.


(Yes, it probably *should* be 'fire 1 turret or all fixed mounts at a -2', but that's not what it says. And since the purpose of fixed mounts is to make single man fighters viable, it probably isn't actually an error that it the way it is)

 

[Vormaerin]

There's a reason everyone tends to choose a pulse, rather than a beam, laser, when optimizing for a more aggressive approach.

Well, three.

Availability, range, and damage.

Sure, but the average merchant is not optimizing for aggression. So the fact that pulse lasers cost twice as much and are less accurate for their probably not highly expert gunners is a factor. At long range or very long range, they are going to be trying to disengage/call for help, not start shooting.

 

[Condottiere]

Damage and accuracy is a question as to who's feeling more lucky.

Range gives you space and time.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If the pirate has a military ship, you should just surrender if you are not in a position to jump. Their advantage in firepower, electronics, combat related software, armor, and thrust is just overwhelming.

The Harrier is just a well-equipped (state-sponsored?) pirate, not a real warship. But the minimal merchantman can't see it...

But, agreed, if something superior turns up, a merchantman can only surrender and hope for an insurance payout.

 

[Vormaerin]

The Harrier is just a well-equipped (state-sponsored?) pirate, not a real warship. But the minimal merchantman can't see it...

But, agreed, if something superior turns up, a merchantman can only surrender and hope for an insurance payout.

Yeah, you might not recognize the Harrier for being a military ship until it uses its particle barbette and military grade electronics. And, of course, it has the stealth tech and advanced EW suite to let it get really close undetected.

Obviously, its not a fleet combatant.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I don't see that there is any evidence that the Subbie is overpowered compared to other merchant vessels in design. But, yes, if you want to go with the bare minimum to jump with nothing else running, you could go down to 80 power. None of the merchants are designed that way, though.

Like most other small ships, it has a healthy power surplus, to fit adventurers, as befits the game.

If we actually cared about money, we could easily save a few Dt and MCr with a smaller power plant.

You put missiles in turrets because you use vector movement and don't want to have to face your opponent to fire them?

Missiles manoeuvre independently, it doesn't matter where they are ejected.

And the -2 for the pilot to fire specifically a turret. It says "may fire the weapons in single turret at -2 on the attack roll or all the weapons noted as being in fixed mounts." So that -2 does not apply.

OK, that wasn't in 2017, so it's news to me.

Still a merchant pilot probably isn't a stellar gunner?

Beam lasers also, for whatever reason, don't have Long range as an option. So firing at long range isn't an option.

Exactly...

So if the guy sees your 4 triple mounts and keeps coming, then you've got 4 shots at 4+ to hit for 1d6+2 each. If you go with long range weapons, you'll have the more expensive pulse laser with only +2 to hit. So you'd get 4 shots at 8+ doing 2d6+4 each.

With a DM+2 for pulse laser and a DM-2 for range, so an effective DM±0. Doing effectively about 2D+2 per turret (average about 5 damage), against over 50 damage per turret for missiles.

But if one side has pulse lasers, the other side can open up with missiles at Very Long range, without risking return fire. It would just take more missiles.

And you didn't spend Cr250000 to do it.

Sure, and you didn't kill the other ship, it killed you (after a few turns).

Winning a fight is perhaps not cheap, but losing a fight is very expensive.

The inability to engage multiple targets and dogfight applies to missiles in fixed mounts too, so I'm not sure what relevance that has.

You don't attack with missiles, you launch missiles, then the missiles attack by themselves. At least in 2017. So, restrictions to firing arcs don't apply.

Maybe where you play your campaigns, there are TL 15 worlds laying around for easy availability of fancy missiles, but that's not true as a general rule.

I've mostly played in the Spinward Marches or similar Imperial settings, so, yes, TL-15 worlds and tech is available not all that far away. If you really want it, you can get it...

Note that Multi-warhead missiles are just expensive, not hi-tech (TL-8).

(Yes, it probably *should* be 'fire 1 turret or all fixed mounts at a -2', but that's not what it says. And since the purpose of fixed mounts is to make single man fighters viable, it probably isn't actually an error that it the way it is)

I'm not unhappy about that, as that was a significant problem for light fighters. As heavier fighters are now nerfed, as far as I understand, light fighters are the only viable option?

 

[Vormaerin]

People keep saying that it doesn't matter about missile launcher, but that is flat out NOT the rule. You can house rule it, but it is NOT the rule. And dogfighting rules further state you can't fire a fixed mount weapon unless you win the positioning contest (as well as saying that missiles used in dogfights can't benefit from their smart trait).

Smart missiles are not autonomous drones with AI brains that can pick and track their own targets. You have to designate their target then they have the capability to adjust their trajectory to account for evasive maneuvers and whatnot. Fixed Mounts may only be targeted on objects in front of the ship per the rules. That's the cost for have absolutely no power or space assigned to them. They have crap for fire control systems. That is the rule. You don't have to play that way. That's fine.

I understand the "realism" argument there, but I don't get into cherry picking realism. And fixed mounts have other realism issues if we are going to get into that. What, you have 48 missiles strapped the outside of your subbie that mysteriously have no effect on its jump parameters? Why can't you have a fixed mount cargo carriers, then? 48 missiles is 4 dtons of cargo space if you are carrying reloads.

As I said earlier, the rules for fixed mounts are deliberately structured to make your Vipers/Starfuries/X-Wings a thing. They have all these special structures for that purpose, like not taking space or power. And I'm certainly not going to insist that people follow rules they don't like. But for forum discussions, if we don't agree on how the rules work, there's not really a common basis for discussion.

If you can find me a rule that states that missiles are an exception to the targeting limit of fixed mounts, I'll happily accept it. But I have not seen such a rule anywhere.