Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

[Condottiere]

If you try deconstructing Traveller's missile weapon systems, which I have, you come face to face with a lot of discrepancies, which, if charitable, you can attribute to legacy baggage.

 

[Vormaerin]

Regarding merchants, they don't design their ships to fight and win. They design their ships to make it possible to deter or escape combat. So they are going to use beam lasers because they are the most cost effective option. They are less expensive than pulse lasers or missiles. They are more accurate at ranges where they are likely to be forced to fight instead of being able to run for it. And they can be used to defend the ship from missiles. Missiles cost more upfront. They cost an enormous amount to actually use.

Using your missiles will probably cost you more than just giving them your cargo (which is probably insured anyway). In the unlikely event that the pirates actually seize the ship (which requires that they can catch you, take control of the ship, get your slow ass merchant to somewhere it can refuel to jump (because if you had fuel, you would have jumped..), all before the SDBs show up. That's not likely. And if they do, you can probably ransom the ship and crew for a reasonable amount of money.

 

[Vormaerin]

If you try deconstructing Traveller's missile weapon systems, which I have, you come face to face with a lot of discrepancies, which, if charitable, you can attribute to legacy baggage.

I am well aware that they could easily (and probably should) work like Star Fleet Battle's drones. But that isn't how the rules work. And I suspect that if the rules were changed so that they worked like that, then they'd probably make changes to how "fixed mounts" work on starships.

 

[k0k0pelli]

Neither the attack bonus for laser, nor the attack bonus for Fire Control applies to PD, as that isn't an Attack but a Reaction, by the book.

PD is basically the skill of the gunner, plus a bonus for multiple weapons in the turret.

With a skill of 2 and a triple turret (+2), a missile would be killed on 5+, or about 3 missiles on average.

got it, ty. We interpreted the rules differently but if I ever get to play again I will take it into account.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

People keep saying that it doesn't matter about missile launcher, but that is flat out NOT the rule. You can house rule it, but it is NOT the rule. And dogfighting rules further state you can't fire a fixed mount weapon unless you win the positioning contest (as well as saying that missiles used in dogfights can't benefit from their smart trait).

I follow the understanding of the beta playtest in '15-'16. The text may have changed in the 2022 edition.

A missile launch is not an attack:

Core(2017), p162:
Missiles and Targets
When a missile salvo reaches its target, the missile makes an attack roll as normal. However, the Gunner skill of the Traveller(s) that fired the salvo is not used as a DM.

The missile salvo attacks when it has reached the target. There is no attack or attack roll to launch missiles.


A dogfight restrict attacks:

Core(2017), p162-3:
A draw means that neither ship may attack the other with fixed weapons. The winner may choose to place his opponent’s ship in a fire arc of his choice and may choose which of the opposing ship’s fire arcs his own vehicle lies in.

In this way, the winner of a dogfight can ensure all his forward facing weapons can attack his enemy while ensuring he stays out of his opponent’s forward facing (and the weapons present there). In addition, the winner of a dogfight gains DM +2 to all his attack rolls for this round while the loser suffers DM -2.

Launching missiles is still not an attack.


Missiles lose the Smart trait at Close range, but can still manoeuvre itself, just not as well:

Core(2017), p161;
Launching Missiles
Missiles used against targets within Adjacent or Close ranges lose any Smart trait they possess, as there is not enough time for them to obtain a solid lock and take advantage of their advanced guidance systems.

They are not guided missiles, but fire-and-forget. You can't change the target of the salvo once the missile is launched.



And tangentially, Missile Racks have no stated range, nor effect on the range of the missile, so missiles launched from missile racks on firmpoints have the same range as any other identical missile.

 

[k0k0pelli]

I tend to disagree with the assessment that missiles launched from a fixed mount do not need to obey facing but if we want to debate that can it be on another thread?

p.s. if you use the new vector based rules, which I would, then facing does not matter period (missiles or fixed weapons) so there is that.

 

[Vormaerin]

Well, then pilots can't launch missiles because it specifically refers to "firing weapons" in the Attack step as the pilot's option. *rolls eyes*

 

[Vormaerin]

Anyway, I don't know what the intended rule is. I know what is written. Personally, if I were designing the system, you wouldn't have missiles, energy weapons, and sandcasters using the same weapons platform in the first place. Even back in the day when missiles had turret launchers they weren't remotely like the turrets with the guns. VLS type systems is what a missile bay is, as far as I am aware.

Missiles should be LOAL. But "fixed mount" that takes 0 power and 0 space yet holds 12 missiles in some sort of astral pocket dimension and can be triggered by an unskilled guy doing something else at the same time shouldn't be a thing on a starship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Anyway, I don't know what the intended rule is. I know what is written. Personally, if I were designing the system, you wouldn't have missiles, energy weapons, and sandcasters using the same weapons platform in the first place. Even back in the day when missiles had turret launchers they weren't remotely like the turrets with the guns. VLS type systems is what a missile bay is, as far as I am aware.

Missiles should be LOAL. But "fixed mount" that takes 0 power and 0 space yet holds 12 missiles in some sort of astral pocket dimension and can be triggered by an unskilled guy doing something else at the same time shouldn't be a thing on a starship.

It's a game, it's highly simplified. There's a reason we're discussing MgT, not FF&S...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I tend to disagree with the assessment that missiles launched from a fixed mount do not need to obey facing but if we want to debate that can it be on another thread?

OK, sorry.

 

[Vormaerin]

It's a game, it's highly simplified. There's a reason we're discussing MgT, not FF&S...

Sure, but it is still bad design to create an element that is designed to have advantages that are offset by disadvantages that are not actually factors in the game. Fixed Mounts work for small craft because the design intent is that small craft are dogfighting and there is a mechanic for making facing a thing in dogfighting (the you can't shoot unless you do well on that dogfighting roll).

Ship to ship combat doesn't use facing. There's no mechanic for determining if your supposedly limited system is actually limited. Further, the value of the advantage (no space and power) is magnified because there is a lot more things you can do with that space and power instead, like saving crew roles, having more cargo, etc and those things are luxuries not a mandatory 'cheat' to make the concept (such as light fighter) even work.

Personally, I don't allow fixed mounts to be used on starships because the rules don't support them, imho. However, I don't discuss concepts on the forums in terms of my personal house rules. But at this point, we don't even agree what the RAW is, so it isn't possible to continue the discussion about how the things would work based on the rules. *shrugs*

And an argument about what the rule actually is would be both off topic and not likely to lead to an agreement.

 

[Bill Sheil]

Regarding merchants, they don't design their ships to fight and win. They design their ships to make it possible to deter or escape combat. So they are going to use beam lasers because they are the most cost effective option.

But one thing that missiles will do is tie up the pirate's lasers in point defense and therefore reduce the incoming fire, therefore reducing damage and the risk of being disabled.

But in practice they would need to keep spamming missiles until they reach protection/escape which could be hours/game turns.