Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Using the Robot Handbook, it was simple enough to construct a robot brain that all weapons systems should have already built in. The cost is trivial when compared to the weapon and it can always be overridden by a sophant operator if the ship desires. Gunnery problem solved.
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Maybe that's the Hostile (for some other random reason) shipJust to be a pedant, if the captain and crew steal the ship from the owner, it is barratry, not piracy
And that pirate was supposed to be DARING. Failing to make quota is lame rather than daring.
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As I said before, the encounter chart is pretty much carried over from CT in its conception. The Spinward Marches in CT is a much more lawless and under patrolled region than the version in Mongoose Traveller.
If you want pirates, you have to reduce the amount of military around. Which is easy to do. If you want the sizable patrol fleets described in the recent sourcebooks, piracy won't be anywhere near as common as the encounter charts describe. It's just another one of the conflicting elements of how Charted Space is described.
Also, the encounter charts are generic Traveller rules. They are not customized to any specific region of Charted Space.
If you want pirates, you have to reduce the amount of military around. Which is easy to do. If you want the sizable patrol fleets described in the recent sourcebooks, piracy won't be anywhere near as common as the encounter charts describe. It's just another one of the conflicting elements of how Charted Space is described.
Also, the encounter charts are generic Traveller rules. They are not customized to any specific region of Charted Space.
Psycho Box. Int 4 armed with pulse lasers
The Imperium also allows trade wars between corporations. It's a core element of The Traveller Adventure. Though those ships shouldn't be attacking random free traders....
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
Not that it is official or anything but there is a story in Freelance Traveller where it mentions ships have to have a live gunner, but a lot have one on the books but really use an automated system.
Unless one of their competitors put it about that that free trader was actually a merc in their employ. That would be a legit target. But then it actually isn't... Ooopsie
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
What could possibly go wrong?Psycho Box. Int 4 armed with pulse lasers
Here is a slightly pricier model that avoids that. I didn't realize the cost was so close. This should be the default. If the ship has gunnery software, that skill number goes up more. It beats the heck out of most sophant gunners and doesn't complain about the quality of the food.
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Just for context, how big is the navy supposed to be (in ships per system of possible) or can you provide a reference so I can look it up. Not that I have every supplement you understand.
Not at home at the moment. But the Imperial Navy fleet breakdowns for the Old Expanses are in The Imperial Navy sourcebook, IIRC. And War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War does the same for the Spinward Marches.
However, neither of those cover the Planetary Navies.
But it at least gives you an idea of just how many patrol ships that the Imperium has these days.
However, neither of those cover the Planetary Navies.
But it at least gives you an idea of just how many patrol ships that the Imperium has these days.
I only had access to a review of the Imperial Navy Sourcebook (too niche for me) but interesting, the notes on anti-piracy operations on p59-60 indicate that the navy recognises that it is better to shut down receivers of stolen goods than try to find the pirates themselves and patrols are a deterrent rather than a solution. This indicates that pirates exist and are somewhat successful. It also notes that imperial space is beyond the 100D limit and this increases the area needed to be patrolled considerably. This means a ship with early jump need never enter Imperial Space and within the 100D limit you are only going to face local customs vessels which for poor systems might not be much of anything.
There are more ships for the sector than I was expecting to be fair. Most however seem to be aimed at defending against other navies rather than anti-piracy. The book didn't seem to break down the system level complement though I inferred this is duty of the patrol flotillas. With only 40-60 patrol flotillas per sector fleet then each flotilla has to cover over 20 system hexes. Assuming they don't patrol empty sectors that means the flotilla is spread over more than half a dozen populated systems. With 12 corvettes per flotilla that is 2 per populated system (assuming they are willing to split up). Even if they deploy their boats (which would be a risk) that only gives 4 ships to cover a huge area.
I'd be interested in a credible counter argument, but if these are typical numbers then either the Navy doesn't have enough ships in a system to cover the system effectively or if it concentrates its forces will not be able to cover every system in the sector. I have no doubts that a couple of corvettes could deal with the average "Daring Pirate", I am just not convinced they would find them. An entire flotilla jumping in would likely lead to every pirate jumping out which would be a draw at least.
There are more ships for the sector than I was expecting to be fair. Most however seem to be aimed at defending against other navies rather than anti-piracy. The book didn't seem to break down the system level complement though I inferred this is duty of the patrol flotillas. With only 40-60 patrol flotillas per sector fleet then each flotilla has to cover over 20 system hexes. Assuming they don't patrol empty sectors that means the flotilla is spread over more than half a dozen populated systems. With 12 corvettes per flotilla that is 2 per populated system (assuming they are willing to split up). Even if they deploy their boats (which would be a risk) that only gives 4 ships to cover a huge area.
I'd be interested in a credible counter argument, but if these are typical numbers then either the Navy doesn't have enough ships in a system to cover the system effectively or if it concentrates its forces will not be able to cover every system in the sector. I have no doubts that a couple of corvettes could deal with the average "Daring Pirate", I am just not convinced they would find them. An entire flotilla jumping in would likely lead to every pirate jumping out which would be a draw at least.
Those are the Imperial Navy vessels. The planetary governments have their own ships. So the Navy is supplementing them.
Not sure where you get the idea that the Imperial Navy doesn't have any jurisdiction within 100D. But it is kind of irrelevant. The Navy doesn't need to patrol the entire system with its corvettes. That's what System Defense Boats do. They only need to patrol around trafficked areas. And that's basically the 100D limit of the starport, since Mongoose era jump drives are pretty accurate. You are going to have approach lanes the same way real life sea and airports do. Ships aren't going to be coming from any which way or not be in contact with the starport.
Pirates aren't going to have any targets that are not near planets because of how jump drives work.
IF you have a heavily developed system, then you can have ships moving between planets in real space. That will potentially increase the chances of pirates having an opportunity. But it also increases the resources available for counter piracy. However, the encounter charts are for PC ships, which are about 99% jump drive capable.
We have sensor arrays at the 100D limit right now IRL. You think they aren't going to have a fighter base or something in the future in which merchant traffic is high?
Piracy in the real world doesn't happen in the English Channel. It happens in places where ships have constrained traffic patterns and the local governments are complicit or not existent. So off east Africa or in the straits around Malaysia. But in Traveller, you can teleport from port to port. You don't have to cross the wilds in between.
It is very easy to make all of this not true and make piracy an actual threat. It is just very difficult to have Imperial Sector Fleets, the Subsector Fleets, the Colonial Fleets, and the modern precision jump drives (not to mention early jump) and have any space for piracy.
Personally, I like to make basically every system extensively developed and make Jump 0 not a thing, so ships have to spend more time in real space between planets. Just makes for a more interesting situation, imho. You could also make jump arrival far more random than it is in Mongoose, so you can't have a fairly controllable arrival area. You could also just not run your game inside an organized state with a powerful military and heavy obsession with interstellar trade.
Not sure where you get the idea that the Imperial Navy doesn't have any jurisdiction within 100D. But it is kind of irrelevant. The Navy doesn't need to patrol the entire system with its corvettes. That's what System Defense Boats do. They only need to patrol around trafficked areas. And that's basically the 100D limit of the starport, since Mongoose era jump drives are pretty accurate. You are going to have approach lanes the same way real life sea and airports do. Ships aren't going to be coming from any which way or not be in contact with the starport.
Pirates aren't going to have any targets that are not near planets because of how jump drives work.
IF you have a heavily developed system, then you can have ships moving between planets in real space. That will potentially increase the chances of pirates having an opportunity. But it also increases the resources available for counter piracy. However, the encounter charts are for PC ships, which are about 99% jump drive capable.
We have sensor arrays at the 100D limit right now IRL. You think they aren't going to have a fighter base or something in the future in which merchant traffic is high?
Piracy in the real world doesn't happen in the English Channel. It happens in places where ships have constrained traffic patterns and the local governments are complicit or not existent. So off east Africa or in the straits around Malaysia. But in Traveller, you can teleport from port to port. You don't have to cross the wilds in between.
It is very easy to make all of this not true and make piracy an actual threat. It is just very difficult to have Imperial Sector Fleets, the Subsector Fleets, the Colonial Fleets, and the modern precision jump drives (not to mention early jump) and have any space for piracy.
Personally, I like to make basically every system extensively developed and make Jump 0 not a thing, so ships have to spend more time in real space between planets. Just makes for a more interesting situation, imho. You could also make jump arrival far more random than it is in Mongoose, so you can't have a fairly controllable arrival area. You could also just not run your game inside an organized state with a powerful military and heavy obsession with interstellar trade.
I think the issue you would run into is the general ban on Warbots in the imperium
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Ah, but it isn't a warbot. It's not autonomous. It is under the direct oversight of sophants who must initiate the use of the weapons.
The Robot Handbook said this:
That directly addresses the autonomous part, so I believe that is the major driver in the restriction. It also provides an avenue for weapon's manufacturers better assure the Imperium their weapons aren't being misused.
I would venture to say that anyone that can buy ship mounted missiles and lasers can satisfy the accountability part, particularly if it is part of the weapon. Perhaps the robotic gunner is a mandated part if it has safeguards and rules of engagement built in to assure defensive use. Honestly, I think this would fly since without the robotic gunner, the weapons are still there and useable.
It also says this:
The Imperium has no one law or policy. Their forces do not use them, and presumably many member worlds also eschew them, but it is only doctrine, not law. Add in that this robotic gunner is not autonomous, and I think this works.
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My point was the only real advantage a Missile rack has over a long range beam laser is its range but if you can’t actually use the range to your advantage the missile loses it’s only real advantage. And as has been pointed out most ships are ID by their transponder which a pirate is going to be using a fake one. More often or not combats between freetraders and pirates are going to be closer range rather than long range. The only real advantage a missile has is its range, Beam Lasers cost only once even if you go for the long range option the beam laser is only costing .625 Mcr per laser which is cheaper than the .75 Mcr per missile rack plus the cost of the missiles. A free/fartrader would have to run two triple racks (rather it’s a turret or not really doesn’t matter) to even get a chance to get a hit on a pirate ship and that’s only it the pirate doesn’t have military sensor and a ECM suite. Yes missiles in theory do more damage but that’s if they hit which it’s been pointed out is hard unless you have a ton of them. Now don’t get me wrong missile are great for warships but for a merchantman it’s at best a sub optimal option.
Apologies I misread of 3rd para p57 on a you tube video. Below 10D is under absolute control of planet (with some agreed exceptions), Beyond 100D is under the absolute control of Empire. I missed the bit about 10D-100D being shared jurisdiction. Where there is shared jurisdiction there is confusion and rivalry.
But if they are system defence boats owned by the planetary government it is not their jurisdiction to patrol beyond 100D. They may patrol specific corridors (say between two in system planets) as that is classed as their jurisdiction, but not everyone will necessarily go the legal way (smugglers, paranoid belters etc.) These people make ideal pirate victims and the government might even say "your own fault".
That doesn't follow. I can believe that astrogation might get you within around 100D of a planetary body, but I do not see that it will get you into a specific flight lane. You might have to conform to a flight lane before you get too close to the planet (say 10D since that is when the planet takes full control), but you don't jump into the same spot. One of the primary benefits of jumping into the 100D limit is that there are so many places to arrive, the likelihood of arriving at the same time and place as another ship is vanishingly small. Start saying you all have to jump in to the same place and you will have chaos in heavy traffic planets and premature precipitation galore. Given you cannot predict when you will arrive you cannot be sure on the rotation of the planet or anything in orbit.
I believe they could be coming from any which way and contact with the starport assumes there is a starport to contact or that the starport isn't busy dealing with other people or that you want to advertise your arrival to the starport. Travellers have been known to jump into system and bypass the starport to find their own route to the planet.
100d is not necessarily that near. It is 4-5 hours travel for your average trader and could be a lot more. If you use the formula to calculate how far you can travel at a particular thrust rather than using the easy rules then you could find it takes several hours to travel to that trader under attack and he might not still be there when you get there.
Double the planets may be double the resources but the space you need to cover between them will be a far larger multiple. The most common intersystem travel will be to asteroid belts or gas giants for fuel. Fuel tankers make poor targets for pirates and the only pirates there will be wilderness refuelling and not behaving as pirates so not fair game. Asteroid belts on the other hand cover vast areas and will have sensor dead zones and multiple false readings. A pirate hunting there for belter ships (or even launches) to haul off could make easy pickings with not a lot the planetary government could do about it (since asteroid belts would be in their jurisdiction). A pirate that decided to use a planetoid hull and ran silent could be very difficult to spot there.
Not sure what you mean by that. 1.2 million km is a long way out, way beyond the usual orbits for our space junk. Do you mean the few scientific sensors at the Lagrange points? Lagrange points are determined by the interaction of the bodies in the solar system and may very well be useless (e.g. the other side of the sun and thus unable to communicate with the planet). Anything you put there can still only detect to the range of its sensors. That gives you a few isolated spheres of detection that are fixed, often far out in the boonies, easily plotted and can be avoided by a pirate. If the trader is in trouble halfway round the other side of that 100D limit then he'll be around 600,000 km away even at thrust 6 that is going to take a while (over 1.5 hours).
The wilds are not the jump space bit, they are the 100D to the planet bit or the maybe the in system bit where planet to planet would take a few days rather than a week and 20 tons of fuel or conducted by a spaceship rather than a starship. Many law levels and planetary government types mean government control is effectively non-existent. With too low a TL they may not have the facilities to do anything about it anyway.
I think you have too much faith in the power of government. I work in government so I am more sceptical of the beneficial influence of bureaucracy.
I agree they are probably a worse choice than a turreted beam or pulse laser. I considered the damage to be their biggest advantage. Not requiring a gunner was another but as we have seen you can trump that with a cheap gunner droid. For them to be effective as you say you both need to do that damage (so against a ship with low hull or armour overkill and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages) and you need to be able to hit (which is where we were considering that the rules for missiles were a bit rubbish and didn't take into account the options for robots in missile chassis). Standard missiles in small volleys are unlikely to survive long enough to do any damage and are more of a liability than a help.
I am not even convinced you are safer with some sort of laser unless you invest fully and have decent sensors and a proper gunner (droid or otherwise). You could probably put a sandcaster on a fixed mount without it becoming a real detriment other than cost, but it might not be a benefit either.
Personally I'd take the extra cargo or maybe upgrade the manoeuvre drive.
Truthfully I’d scrape the passenger staterooms increase the maneuver drive keep the turrets load them with a double long range beam laser in one double sandcasters in the other upgrade the sensors to military and add a ECM suite
