Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

[Sigtrygg]

While true, the IN can’t spread their forces thin or they will be unable to react to major events in a timely manner. If the FFW started and they were scattered, well, that would be bad.

So they just sit at their bases waiting? How do you rule the space between the stars by hiding at your bases?

I don't think so.

I would think that the sub-1000 ton vessels are sent out on routine patrols so their crews can learn from the real experiences of pirate hunting, search and rescue, customs inspections, blowing up the odd merchant with a faulty transponder...

Larger vessels in the 1000-5000 range likely move between IN bases, incidentally patrolling the systems they jump through en-route.

Why are cruisers called cruisers - they cruise

 

[Terry Mixon]

So they just sit at their bases waiting? How do you rule the space between the stars by hiding at your bases?

I don't think so.

I would think that the sub-1000 ton vessels are sent out on routine patrols so their crews can learn from the real experiences of pirate hunting, search and rescue, customs inspections, blowing up the odd merchant with a faulty transponder...

Larger vessels in the 1000-5000 range likely move between IN bases, incidentally patrolling the systems they jump through en-route.

Why are cruisers called cruisers - they cruise

I believe a percentage of them are on patrol. Not all by any means. They would have to find a balance. As for sitting in their bases waiting, there likely is some of that. You can’t call for help if you have no idea where to go to find them.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The patrol cruisers, escorts, and such that are good against piracy are useless in battle. Being spread out is exactly what they are for because their job is to run screaming for mommy if they see a Zho battle fleet. And being as dispersed as possible makes it less likely that an intruder can penetrate without being spotted.

The ships that actually fight are all 5000 dtons and up. They stay together.

I can buy into that.

 

[tytalan]

Yep, but four mods is right out.

No one suggested 4 mods? This doesn’t make sense

 

[Terry Mixon]

No one suggested 4 mods? This doesn’t make sense

Long range is 2 mods by itself. Having it twice is 4 mods. And I hadn’t seen that it says not more than once anyway.

 

[tytalan]

You’re not going to find much piracy in systems with class A or B starports.
1) these are the ones most likely to have Highports A: 6+ B: 8+
2) these systems tend to have a greater economy so they can afford a strong system force.
No it when you are either outside of multiple system governments or less affluent system that piracy becomes more widespread. Areas like the Trojan reach is a good example

 

[tytalan]

Long range is 2 mods by itself. Having it twice is 4 mods. And I hadn’t seen that it says not more than once anyway.

View attachment 3422

Never said anything about having it twice a beam laser is medium range adding long range is only 2 mods. I’m not sure again where you are coming from. I suggested a single double mod changing the beam laser from medium range to long range and from TL10 to TL 12 perfectly legal

 

[Terry Mixon]

Never said anything about having it twice a beam laser is medium range adding long range is only 2 mods. I’m not sure again where you are coming from. I suggested a single double mod changing the beam laser from medium range to long range and from TL10 to TL 12 perfectly legal

Then I apologize for misreading what you said. I interpreted double mod as doing it twice.

 

[tytalan]

Then I apologize for misreading what you said. I interpreted double mod as doing it twice.

I can understand that. One of the funniest things about this thread is if we were talking about Mega or LBB missiles would be the right choice but the changes in combat from then to now changes that. Of course when I’m running at lot of LBB and Mega bleeds into my game, triple turrets are hard to get and get added attention because they are considered semi military, now missiles also gets that attention for similar reasons. Civilian ships are generally limited to lasers (beam, pulse, and drill), Sandcaster’s, anything else will get you looked at more closely not necessarily illegal mind you but generally considered questionable at least in the imperium. Missiles don’t generally fit the merchant profile, they have an extra cost, they are purely offensive, and are best at ranges beyond the merchants general sensor range. For these reasons while not illegal missile carrying merchants give a red flag

 

[tytalan]

Truthfully Terry the most common merchantman weapons in my game for TL 12 are Beam Lasers with Long range, Pulse Lasers with Accuracy and High Focus, and Sandcasters. Most starports in my game will install a double turret of these in any combination and not blink a eye, missiles and Triple turrets will require some short of explaining or skill check, other Ship weapons are going to be harder to acquire possibly even requiring a license. Now that’s in the third imperium not necessarily everywhere (Zhodani space for an example it depends on your station and in any case is going to be hard, Vargr anything goes).

 

[swordtart]

The Fifth Frontier War and the Imperial Navy Book give fleet compositions.

Digging into these there are hundreds of Gazelle class or better CE class ships, hundreds of patrol cruisers and couriers, and hundreds of escort class vessels, more than enough to have a patrol in every single system. IN personnel are not going to get experience flying and fighting their ships by sitting around an IN base and running training sims alone...

Yes and I noted in my post here that there could be 2 Corvettes per system. My point was that 2 Corvettes cannot scan every inch of the 100D limit at all times. Even of you add a dozen other small ships (I didn't get a chance to read the full book as it is very setting specific and my games are not Navy games) it is still not enough because sensors have a finite range and just noting there is a ship sized blob over 50,000 km away is not enough to identify a potential threat.

That doesn't mean that 2 Corvettes per system cannot conduct useful anti-piracy or customs operations to train and test junior commanders or provide the early warning of fleet level incursions for the big flotillas to deal with, or take on smaller hostile forces or just do the traditional job of the Navy (cocktail parties and propaganda).

They just cannot check every single ship moving though a system, and the evidence in that same book is that they don't.

 

[Vormaerin]

But they don't need to. Any sensible system is going to have a shipping corridor. Especially if you have a low traffic system with limited customs/patrol resources.

 

[swordtart]

But they don't need to. Any sensible system is going to have a shipping corridor. Especially if you have a low traffic system with limited customs/patrol resources.

Do you have a reference you can cite.

 

[swordtart]

Because I couldn't help myself, I created a top-of-the-line robotic gunner.

Once you fit this then missiles become expensive exercises in futility. Even if launched at medium range where EW isn't possible your point defence is going to shred any missile salvo from a peer level opponent (tonnage at least).

 

[Condottiere]

Piracy patrol tends to be a question of (leftover) resource allocation.

I'd say outer system patrol vessel, that also keeps monitors (over)mining, illegal immigration, and so on.

 

[Vormaerin]

Do you have a reference you can cite.

As I mentioned before, there is NO information anywhere about how any of this works. I am using real world comparables and what mongoose's articles on Jump travel say about accuracy of the jump drive in this edition.

IRL, they have shipping and air corridors for a variety of safety reasons. That seems like something especially likely to happen in space because having a "space traffic control net" that covers a million km in every direction from a planet does seem a bit excessive.

The rules in the JTAS and Companion articles on Jump travel make it nearly certain that a ship will arrive in a fairly controlled (say within 100k km) area near the 100D border barring a near misjump. Depending on how much of a stickler you are for the jump space obstruction concept (which introduces a lot of problems to jump travel that aren't reflected in any in game materials), you might have 2 arrival points, but probably can get away with one. But the idea that legitimate shipping will arrive from basically anywhere around the planet makes no sense. It makes life more complicated for the starbase authorities and the civil defense forces.

Even without that, any ship near the planet will have to have its transponder blaring because it won't escape notice. Even if you just have "there's a ship there" if it isn't broadcasting who it is, that will be a huge red flag.

So any pirate will have to be able to fool the local authorities that it is a legit vehicle obeying starport routing instructions while also somehow rushing down a merchant ship. How difficult that is is unclear. The game mechanics imply that it is quite difficult, primarily to keep players from doing it willy nilly. You might want pirate syndicates able to do easier?

Anyway, if you think a 1000-year-old space empire obsessed with interstellar trade is going to have no space control regime in place, that's fine. It's your campaign. I'm sure part of the reason none of this is ever defined is to allow this difference of opinion.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yes and I noted in my post here that there could be 2 Corvettes per system. My point was that 2 Corvettes cannot scan every inch of the 100D limit at all times. Even of you add a dozen other small ships (I didn't get a chance to read the full book as it is very setting specific and my games are not Navy games) it is still not enough because sensors have a finite range and just noting there is a ship sized blob over 50,000 km away is not enough to identify a potential threat.

That doesn't mean that 2 Corvettes per system cannot conduct useful anti-piracy or customs operations to train and test junior commanders or provide the early warning of fleet level incursions for the big flotillas to deal with, or take on smaller hostile forces or just do the traditional job of the Navy (cocktail parties and propaganda).

They just cannot check every single ship moving though a system, and the evidence in that same book is that they don't.

My numbers are per fleet, there are several fleets in a sector.

 

[swordtart]

As I mentioned before, there is NO information anywhere about how any of this works. I am using real world comparables and what mongoose's articles on Jump travel say about accuracy of the jump drive in this edition.

IRL, they have shipping and air corridors for a variety of safety reasons. That seems like something especially likely to happen in space because having a "space traffic control net" that covers a million km in every direction from a planet does seem a bit excessive.

The rules in the JTAS and Companion articles on Jump travel make it nearly certain that a ship will arrive in a fairly controlled (say within 100k km) area near the 100D border barring a near misjump. Depending on how much of a stickler you are for the jump space obstruction concept (which introduces a lot of problems to jump travel that aren't reflected in any in game materials), you might have 2 arrival points, but probably can get away with one. But the idea that legitimate shipping will arrive from basically anywhere around the planet makes no sense. It makes life more complicated for the starbase authorities and the civil defense forces.

Even without that, any ship near the planet will have to have its transponder blaring because it won't escape notice. Even if you just have "there's a ship there" if it isn't broadcasting who it is, that will be a huge red flag.

So any pirate will have to be able to fool the local authorities that it is a legit vehicle obeying starport routing instructions while also somehow rushing down a merchant ship. How difficult that is is unclear. The game mechanics imply that it is quite difficult, primarily to keep players from doing it willy nilly. You might want pirate syndicates able to do easier?

Anyway, if you think a 1000-year-old space empire obsessed with interstellar trade is going to have no space control regime in place, that's fine. It's your campaign. I'm sure part of the reason none of this is ever defined is to allow this difference of opinion.

I just found a reference. P157 of the updated Traveller Companion (P147 of the per 2024 update).

Transit in and out from a safe jump distance can be quite lengthy and in a busy system there might be numerous ships headed in and out at once. However, there is no single ‘jump point’ in a system so these ships will be spread out over a huge volume of space.

I probably read this at some point and it set my expectation and policy. In the light of there being no guidance indicating corridors existing then I see no reason to revise my opinion.

Incidentally reading the jump mechanics section I also note Lagrange points are explicitly stated as dangerous when jumping so that are less attractive as locations for a preferred jump location if you decide that is a thing in YTU.

 

[swordtart]

My numbers are per fleet, there are several fleets in a sector.

Do they allow a thousand ships per system hex though. I excluded empty hexes for patrols (at a ratio 1:3 for system hexs: empty hexes), but if we are counting more than the corvette contingent and therefore ships that are also supposed to be looking for infiltrators we should not be excluding them.

 

[swordtart]

Do any sources state the range transponders can be picked up and the range they can be pinged to demand additional information. I would be inclined to say Medium range but I would prefer a canon answer if one exists.