Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

But: On P155 of the Core Rulebook you have the space encounter table. Even with the maximum +3 for being in the heart of the empire in a system with an industrial world and high port you can still roll 61 which is a daring pirate (which does not necessarily constitute "a meaningful scale" of piracy). You can rationalise all you want from background fluff (and even common sense) but the lived experience is that one time in 36 you roll 61 and encounter a "Daring Pirate" who must somehow have evaded the Navy. It is for the referee to come up with reasons why that might have happened. I have presented some possible rationale how the situation presented in the core rules could exist. You can put effort into accommodating the rules or to retconning the rules to how you want your universe to run.
I am an idiot.

Of course your chance of even having to roll on the table is only 1 in 6 per day. As most system transits take less than a day and you only make two transits every few weeks that means the average trader in settled space encounters a "Daring Pirate" once every four years.

Looks like those Navy propaganda posters were legit :)
 
Because I couldn't help myself, I created a top-of-the-line robotic gunner.

Let's start with a triple turret with pulse lasers and the long-range advantage and the high yield advantage because the premere robot gunner should have a good weaon, right? That's 2D+4 damage at very long range, and all 1s rolled for damage become 2s. Cost: MCr 6.

Then we have the robot gunner itself. Self-Aware 15, +20 bandwidth, and Gunner (turret) 3 and Gunner (screens) 2. With the DEX on its arm bumped to 18, it gets a nice boost to the gunnery skill and an effective skill of Gunner (turret) of 7. Cost: MCr 3.6.

Why does it need that 25 bandwidth it has in reserve? Because it can load ship's software if it has the spare bandwidth. What takes 25 bandwidth you ask? Basic Fire Control/5. That gives it an effective skill with DM of Gunner (turret) of 12. Oh, and it has 10 0 level skills that might somehow prove useful. Cost MCr 10.

End cost with weapon? MCr 19.6. Pricy, but some people will pay for that kind of ability. Most won't, and will go for the cheap robot gunner, but there is always a market for things on the high end. Take that, pirates. ;)

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Truthfully I’d scrape the passenger staterooms increase the maneuver drive keep the turrets load them with a double long range beam laser in one double sandcasters in the other upgrade the sensors to military and add a ECM suite
Long range takes 2 of the 3 allowed mods. Go with one long range and one high yield.
 
Sometimes I think there is a disconnect in understanding distances in space, either on my part or on others' part. The 100D distance of an earth size world (slightly above average in Traveller) to the orbital starport is like 5-6 hours, which assumes they are braking for half the distance so as to arrive slow enough to dock. For a 6G patrol craft, it's two hours IF they need to slow down. Which they don't if they are zipping out to deal with a bogie. Assuming that they have to come all the way from the planet and aren't much closer already. And the whole place is going to in a pretty reasonable sensor net that will notice loitering ships unless they have state of the art milspec stealth (which is extremely expensive).

And that's assuming that there isn't a customs/patrol base at the L2 point, which is about 125D for Earth IIRC. Which seems kind of likely to me, considering we have the James Webb Telescope there with our extremely limited space flight capabilities.

There are exceptions, of course. Regina is a gas giant moon, so the 100D range is rather larger than normal. And some worlds are well inside the 100D of their Sun. So those can be problematic with longer travel times.

Space piracy is fun and it seems like a thing you'd want to have happen. But that's an extremely limited amount of time for a pirate to ID a target ship, chase it down, force it to stop, steal its cargo (or the whole ship), then escape the 100D limit again and get away.

I don't feel like that 2-6 hour window is "the wilds of space". Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Traveller needs more reasons to be travelling in real space over interplanetary distances, imho. You want players to have reasons to be beyond immediate help. So that they have to do the daring rescue, board the derelict ship, or escape the pirates instead of just calling the coast guard. And to do that you need space ships travelling to the asteroid belts or Jupiter, etc without just doing a safe micro jump.
 
It doesn't seem that the Imperium Navy has enough starwarships to extensively patrol space.

If they do get the location of a pirate base, that they can blast it to kingdom come.

As regards weapons loadout, maybe the Neapolitan mix of missile, sand caster, and laser may actually be enough to ward off pirate attacks.
 
Sometimes I think there is a disconnect in understanding distances in space, either on my part or on others' part. The 100D distance of an earth size world (slightly above average in Traveller) to the orbital starport is like 5-6 hours, which assumes they are braking for half the distance so as to arrive slow enough to dock. For a 6G patrol craft, it's two hours IF they need to slow down. Which they don't if they are zipping out to deal with a bogie. Assuming that they have to come all the way from the planet and aren't much closer already. And the whole place is going to in a pretty reasonable sensor net that will notice loitering ships unless they have state of the art milspec stealth (which is extremely expensive).
It is not a misunderstanding about distances (Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.). There seems to be a misunderstanding about what you need to do when you get there (which is a problem with the space combat rules only using G). The vessel you wish to inspect will have arrived at the 100D limit and would usually arrive stationary. After 1 hour at 1G it will be doing around 36 km/s. After 1 hour at 6G without slowing your interceptor will be travelling at 216 km/s . You don't get to shed that instantly. You will arrive at the intercept location (or rather the point you predicted the interception would be) with a relative velocity of 180 km/s and after a single space turn of 6 minutes you will have overshot by around 64,000 km even if you had cut thrust on arrival. Whilst it is possible that you could conduct the sensor collect in that time and decide a course of action, if you decided you did need to board to carry out a verification or engage you would need to turn around to slow down to a stop (which takes another hour) and then accelerate back the other way, then at some point you will need to turn around again so you can cancel the reversing and accelerate back up to a sensible speed to match that of the target (which might have changed course during all this messing around).

That is why you use the standard calculation* (or at worst modify to allow you to arrive at the same speed as the target). Of course when you set out, you didn't actually know what the vector of the target ship was as your sensors didn't have the range to determine that. SOPs would probably be to assume 1G in the direction of the centre of the planet but the pirate might choose to confound that by selecting a non integral thrust or a different vector.

Where is this magical sensor net coming from? To cover the average size 5 planet 100D you need hundreds of thousands of them if you want more than "there's something there...". If they are not at the few Lagrange points then they need to be able to reposition and you are talking a small ship (or drone), the cost is going to be several MCr each, plus maintenance... And how exactly does it identify a ship as a pirate if that ship isn't behaving piratey?
And that's assuming that there isn't a customs/patrol base at the L2 point, which is about 125D for Earth IIRC. Which seems kind of likely to me, considering we have the James Webb Telescope there with our extremely limited space flight capabilities.
If you put a patrol base there (which would be an Imperial base since 125D is Imperial space) and were able to require all traffic to jump into its vicinity for possible inspection you could eliminate a lot of legitimate traffic as suspects (assuming astrogation allows ships that level of control over your emergence point). If something jumped in on the other side of the planet though, it would be in a worse position than an intercept launched from the planet, but it would definitely be something to investigate. If a pirate decided to pretend to be legit however they would just use the designated arrival point like everyone else. Since they are not painted black with a skull and cross-bones motif they are just another routine check.
There are exceptions, of course. Regina is a gas giant moon, so the 100D range is rather larger than normal. And some worlds are well inside the 100D of their Sun. So those can be problematic with longer travel times.

Space piracy is fun and it seems like a thing you'd want to have happen. But that's an extremely limited amount of time for a pirate to ID a target ship, chase it down, force it to stop, steal its cargo (or the whole ship), then escape the 100D limit again and get away.
I tend to assume that many pirates have identified their targets and cargos at the spaceport (via proxy probably). They set out with a higher G vessel along a similar but not identical path a little later than the target to allay suspicion and plan their intercept to be about an hour or two before the target hits the 100D limit giving an hour to conduct operations. The clock only starts ticking when the target discovers he has a tail and that will be at his sensor range. With the limitations of civilian sensors and poor sensor operators legitimate contact with other vessels is likely to be at very long range as you can only avoid closing on a ship that you are aware of. I suspect there is a lot of "hey buddy mind backing off a bit" before suspicions are aroused so the mayday may not come immediately. If you only encounter a pirate every 4 years the vast majority of sensor bubble incursions are accidental or legit so there will be some delay in activating anti-piracy procedures. Assuming the Mayday is not jammed it will take seconds at most to get to someone who is in a position to help. If the emergency channel is jammed then that itself will alert the authorities something is up, but it will take time to triangulate where the jamming signal is originating. That gives you until the target reaches the 100D limit or an interceptor arrives to engage, loot (or tow the whole ship or put a prize crew on board) and push hard to where you can jump (and I would recommend pirates to have early jump so they can jump immediately operations have concluded). Clever pirates might deploy cry baby drones capable of transmitting false emergency or emergency channel jamming signals timed to fire up before the time of the intercept decoying the authorities away from the real issue. Really sneaky pirates might put such a drone in cargo they pay to have shipped by another trader with a transponder coded to match the carrier.

It is very difficult for a pirate to predict when they would emerge from jump so chasing ships from arrival isn't practical (not least because they probably want to be fully fuelled before they reveal their intentions). Of course if they are opportunistic they could just hope for the best. I suspect these pirates (probably Vargr) get caught a lot. Using a stealth ship would be a better proposition for this sort of attack but it is an expensive option probably reserved for military cutting out operations, but who is to say that "pirate" is freelance.
I don't feel like that 2-6 hour window is "the wilds of space". Maybe I'm wrong about that.
2-6 hours hours is plenty enough to attack a vessel and loot it. If I broke down 2-6 hours from the nearest town it would be a big deal to me, let alone in the cold vacuum of space. It is about as wild as the average spacer will experience as most do not do deep space exploration or even inter system travel. That is why belters are in the Drifter career - "Wild Men I tell you!".

Lets not underestimate this 100D. For an earth sized planet that is over a million km. Lets not toss that number off casually. A MILLION km. Realistic sensor range is less than 50,000 km, 5% of that. After that first hour at 1G you are pootling along in a tiny bubble of light at 36 km/s but getting faster all the time. The faster you go the less time you have to react and the more time you will need to turn around. You can see where you need to go, but not much else. You are relying on statistics to keep you safe.

Like taking a cross channel ferry chances of it going wrong are low and most people don't even consider it, but those life rings and boats are there for a reason (not that your trader is carrying a lifeboat). Everyone is happy in the bar, but every once in a while something does go wrong. An unprotected human in the UK North Sea in winter has a life expectancy less than an hour due to exposure (less if they panic as movement sheds body heat more efficiently). Even those who get into boats are probably going to be wet, and scared and possibly irrational. The fact that land is only a few hours away is cold comfort Outcomes are seldom universally good. But hey, the coastguard will be there in an hour, so that's all right...
Traveller needs more reasons to be travelling in real space over interplanetary distances, imho. You want players to have reasons to be beyond immediate help. So that they have to do the daring rescue, board the derelict ship, or escape the pirates instead of just calling the coast guard. And to do that you need space ships travelling to the asteroid belts or Jupiter, etc without just doing a safe micro jump.
Or you could just let them know that "immediate" help is going to take several hours to get there. People bleed to death in hours, fires spread beyond control in hours, air can run out in hours. Advising them they "just" need to survive 12 turns of space combat with a 400 ton "trader" that has just revealed itself as a corsair should be scary enough.

*Even missiles use the standard calculation presumably as it recognises that they probably need to course correct in the final few km.
 
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This is simply another question that the revised High Guard can answer. Until then each referee can adjudicate it at their table.
Boom.
Done.
 
I'd like to see ECM also revised. It seems based on very old concepts of missile guidance and is a bit too powerful for little cost or skill investment. I am not sure techniques that help protect agile air targets that can change vectors in a heartbeat would be effective for space and star ships that require vector thrust translation.

I don't like the way they magically eliminate missiles rather than impose targeting modifiers. If you distract a missile while it is still several combat rounds out then there should be ways for it to re-acquire the target.

There are several options to improve your EW capability but no options to improve your counter EW capability. In reality this should be an arms race with each counter-measure being systematically defeated (at escalating cost). The first to blink loses. The rules basically say the only option is to just throw more missiles at the problem and some will get through.

There are no HARM variants. The rules allow the target ship to keep upping its transmissions without any adverse impact.

As far as I am aware there isn't even any way for the launching ship to use its own EW capability to counter the target ships EW capability.

Missiles are supposed to be fire and forget, but presently you might as well just forget them as they seem to be pretty ineffective unless in vast barrages and I can't help feeling that you would be better served by replacing them with in all instances by some sort of laser under the current rules.

The only defence against EW is firing at medium range or less since the missiles arrive immediately and thus EW cannot be attempted. They can still be shot down with point defence however.

I'd be interested to know exactly how many missiles were required to guarantee a single hit on a standard free-trader and what you could buy instead. Maybe a job for another day.
 
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The electronic battle depicted in Traveller is still very 'Red Storm Rising'. This is fine so far as that goes. That book does an excellent job of illustrating basic ECM/ECCM for those that don't have any familiarity with it. The importance of detecting the bad guy first and the cat and mouse game of spoof/counter-spoof is painted pretty vividly.
But technology has moved onward a great deal and I think that could be addressed at a squadron level for wargaming purposes but left pretty simple at the RPG 'free trader vs. pirate' level.
Add to this the omniscience of Star Trek's 'sensors' on the one hand and the 'it ain't real till I put a Mk. 1 Eyeball on it' from Star Wars on the other. Though credit to SW for previewing the use of robotic drones [aka 'probes'] way back then.
 
We are getting back into the territory of "what's written doesn't make sense". Yes, "open space" is Imperial territory. But the Colonial Fleets (aka Planetary navies) are not trapped inside the 100D limit. They are, essentially, the National Guard or Coast Guard. They are the primary defense for most systems, because the Navy doesn't station major warships everywhere. That's why there is the comment that many Colonial fleets deliberately only build non jump capable ships. Both because they are more combat effective for a given hull and because the Imperial Navy can't call them up and take them somewhere else very easily. System governments can't enforce local customs laws in outer space. They can, in fact, defend against pirates and raiders, though.

Mongoose Traveller's jump rules are pretty accurate. Merchant ships are going to arrive between 100-110 diameters of planets almost all the time. There is no reason to believe that Starports wouldn't have designated traffic zones. And then you have your customs ships/patrol ships hanging out around just inside the 100D limit to provide inspections, emergency assistance, and protection for arrivals.

In theory, a pirate could follow a ship from port. But that means the pirate ship is sufficiently innocuous that it can be at the port without attracting attention. And it also suggests that there is not very much traffic along the route to 100D limit, because if there were multiple ships around the chances of pulling off a hit without being identified (and thus not able to use the port again) or interfered with are very low. While if it's a backwater system with negligible traffic, you'd have to rely on the merchant ship (and the port) not noticing the only other ship around is on a fast burn parallel to said merchant ship.

Yes, space is big. But there is no reason to use more of it than you can protect. Sure, ships don't have to follow the rules. But ships that don't follow the rules attract attention, which is generally undesirable. You don't have to have an airtight 360 sensor net around your planet. Though with centuries of spacefaring history, that wouldn't boggle my mind.

I think that to the extent there is piracy within the Imperium (besides spectacular one offs), what actually happens is closer to barratry or hijacking. The pirates infiltrate or suborn the crew, have it jump to an isolated area and then loot or steal the ship.

The only other way it works is if you assume the systems operations are corrupt or inept.
 
I'd like to see ECM also revised. It seems based on very old concepts of missile guidance and is a bit too powerful for little cost or skill investment. I am not sure techniques that help protect agile air targets that can change vectors in a heartbeat would be effective for space and star ships that require vector thrust translation.
I am currently working on a rules addition - currently aimed at MgT2e for future JTAS article pehaps, but should be adaptable to most versions.

It will look at sensors, EW, ECM, ECCM etc.

A brief summary of the factors at play

"antenna" area (transmiters and recievers), signal processing (so computers), energy (radiated, reflected, transmitted etc)

However the rough rules boils down to how it worked in HG - computer number difference is a universal DM on all electronic warfare activities
 
Just to be clear, I am not saying that piracy never ever nuh uh doesn't happen. I'm saying that it is not a normal thing to be concerned about inside the Imperium and when it happens, it is a major operation with full heist movie level pre planning and organization. The kind of thing that makes the news for a year and a day (or more).

Unless you produce reasons to put ships in real space all over the solar systems. Which Traveller does a poor job of doing by default. There is just no reason for a merchant ship to ever not be in the vicinity of a planet. And the backwater wild west planets have so little traffic that a predator like a pirate is going to starve waiting for that one paranoid free trader that stops by in any given week to slip up and give an opportunity to be snatched.
 
Just to be clear, I am not saying that piracy never ever nuh uh doesn't happen. I'm saying that it is not a normal thing to be concerned about inside the Imperium and when it happens, it is a major operation with full heist movie level pre planning and organization. The kind of thing that makes the news for a year and a day (or more).
YTUMV and all that, but I tend to disagree.
There's a whole bunch of worlds, even in Core Sector, that can't afford to field so much as a fighter squadron for their orbital defense, much less a dedicated squadron of SDBs solely for criminal activity [smuggling/piracy suppression, etc.]. And, as MJD has repeatedly said in all three of his documents about the Imperial Navy, the Navy can't be everywhere all the time.
The facts of the matter are that crime really DOES pay, if one is smart, savvy, and knows how to make a calculated risk. The 11000 worlds of the Imperium are bound to have more than just a couple where you can upgrade your ship for a reasonable price, get black market or grey market papers, unload hot stolen goods and what have you. No, it's probably not a prevalent as Star Wars piracy is, but I still think piracy in the 3-I is extent enough to keep the subsector fleets busy in every subsector in the Imperium.

Besides, I would NEVER deny my players the joy of having their ship inspected from stem to stern by an uppity, officious Ensign with a lisp after they'd been robbed of their best cargo by a pirate ship hovering at the Jump point.... ;)
 
Just to be clear, I am not saying that piracy never ever nuh uh doesn't happen. I'm saying that it is not a normal thing to be concerned about inside the Imperium and when it happens, it is a major operation with full heist movie level pre planning and organization. The kind of thing that makes the news for a year and a day (or more).
I am just going to have to disagree with the amount of sensors and authority ships that you assert are in each system. With no reference to check on I can only assume this is YTU. You also seem to think that you can identify a pirate before they act and that once they have acted they bear the mark of cain for everyone to see. I think this limits options unnecessarily and creates the kind of "the navy is just a phone call away" situation that you seem to wish to avoid.

I don't think pirates need to be bond villains to survive, they need to be a challenge to the players, not their nemesis. I don't think they are the sorts of idiot who would rob a garage and then start counting the money out on the forecourt either as it isn't "Carry On Corsair". At the end of the day they are likely to end up engaged in naval combat, which requires a degree of competence.

I don't think we are going to reach an agreement as we have fundamentally different perspectives and I can only assess your argument based on the evidence and references you have put forward.
 
The Fifth Frontier War and the Imperial Navy Book give fleet compositions.

Digging into these there are hundreds of Gazelle class or better CE class ships, hundreds of patrol cruisers and couriers, and hundreds of escort class vessels, more than enough to have a patrol in every single system. IN personnel are not going to get experience flying and fighting their ships by sitting around an IN base and running training sims alone...
 
Piracy happens where merchant shipping is forced to go but authority is lacking. Those places you mention that "don't have enough resources to defend anything" are also places that don't command any traffic. Pirates have to have ships to prey on. If hardly any ships come through an area and they are armed and paranoid small traders, piracy isn't profitable. But the areas with high traffic inside the Imperium are easily protected because jump tech teleports you to the edge of the planet where there is a lot of other shipping around.

This is why piracy makes a lot of sense in the Trojan Reach. The Aslan/Florian/Imperium trade is apparently lucrative enough to bring shipping in reasonable volumes but they have to pass through all sorts of backwater worlds with no central authority or significant military strength. The Imperium, Aslan, and Florians can't patrol all those areas either.

As far as evidence goes, there's essentially no information about how things work in Charted Space. We don't know how much trade happens. We don't know how much space infrastructure exists. We don't know how likely it is that secondary worlds are populated in a system. We don't know how much intra-system traffic exists. We don't know what a reasonable colonial navy squadron is. None of this is defined anywhere.

We can't even agree on how much authority the Imperium has over its member planets or what Imperial Dukes actually do.

Every post in every thread that isn't explicitly about a game mechanic has to have a default "IMHO" attached to it, because there flat out isn't any straightforward answers to anything. And what information is posted is generally contradicted by other statements elsewhere.

So, of course, you can structure your game however you want. Of course I am describing my personal interpolation of the sparse setting details. What else would there possibly be to discuss?

I, personally, don't find it credible that there are large volumes of trade on space ships and hardly any space infrastructure like sensor platforms, space stations, etc. I think that the planets with hardly any infrastructure would have hardly any shipping. And the ones with lots of shipping would have lots of infrastructure. But who the hell knows what life is going to be like in 3000 years?

IMHO, the point of forum discussions is to encounter different opinions on how things work, figure out what elements go with what outcomes, and then be better equipped to reverse engineer a situation that creates the outcomes you want.
 
The Fifth Frontier War and the Imperial Navy Book give fleet compositions.

Digging into these there are hundreds of Gazelle class or better CE class ships, hundreds of patrol cruisers and couriers, and hundreds of escort class vessels, more than enough to have a patrol in every single system. IN personnel are not going to get experience flying and fighting their ships by sitting around an IN base and running training sims alone...
While true, the IN can’t spread their forces thin or they will be unable to react to major events in a timely manner. If the FFW started and they were scattered, well, that would be bad.
 
The patrol cruisers, escorts, and such that are good against piracy are useless in battle. Being spread out is exactly what they are for because their job is to run screaming for mommy if they see a Zho battle fleet. And being as dispersed as possible makes it less likely that an intruder can penetrate without being spotted.

The ships that actually fight are all 5000 dtons and up. They stay together.
 
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