Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

[swordtart]

1% piracy rate is insanely high. That means that any given ship can reasonably expect to encounter a pirate once every year or two and then you claim they are gonna be unarmed? Plus, you think that your putative pirate is going to be a paramilitary ship (since they'll have upgraded sensors and armaments, which you clearly think is not normal for a merchant) and still able to routinely trade (with brokers!).

I don't recall if Mongoose still limits what armaments that civilian ships can have. Used to be only lasers, sandcasters, and basic missiles in turrets. But maybe that went by the wayside. If not, that's all your mostly legitimate pirate will have as weaponry.

But the reason I think your post agrees with me is that your pirate is basically barely pirating. He's just a trader who is willing to steal if the opportunity comes his way. He's clearly clean enough that he can deal in legitimate ports instead of backwater pirate havens with fences paying fractions on the credit for stolen goods. And he apparently doesn't attack armed, alert ships.

I'm not saying that no ship ever attacks another ship, but the idea of anyone being primarily a pirate just isn't feasible within a large interstellar polity in a setting using Jump drives, which keep ships within contact of ports nearly all the time.

1% means a pirate encounter on average 100 jumps (actually 108 so it is a little less than 1%). We can normally only manage 26 jumps a year (since we spend a week turning around trade and a week in jump). That means the average ship encounters a pirate once every 4 years.

Any one can trade using the broker based out of the port, but frankly with up to 20 crew in your subbie, the chance of getting an ex-merchant isn't unreasonable -or you could buy a broker bot (assuming the other thread doesn't nerf them). Since the scout is a common small trader and has upgraded sensors, and even armour and this whole thread is about arming traders then I don't think any of that is para-military and entirely reasonable for a trader to have, whether or not a small trader would chose to invest in those rather than investing in cargo is for his business model to determine.

A pirate doesn't need to be clean to deal in legitimate ports, he just needs to have access to someone who is, but if your only identifier is a transponder all you need is a ship with a clean transponder that you can use periodically to offload cargos. You could have a tame trader and send him goods by commercial freight to sell on, you don't even have to go to the port.

You would need to be an idiot to attack an armed and alert ship (or Mal Reynolds). Pirates would prefer not to attack at all. It wastes missiles, risks damage to your ship, risks killing your target's crew which will create bad feeling and may prevent them from conducting further trade, killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

If an unarmed trader cooperates they only need give up some cargo which most of the time is not even theirs. They stand to loose Cr1000/1600 per ton in delivery fees. For a Standard A Class that is at most KCr81 every 4 years for a Far Trader it might be KCr100. How much money are you willing to take out of your trading fund to buy stuff to mitigate that level of loss. Probably none.

Now if you have speculative cargos that you paid for yourself you might be less keen to lose them. Those are the Traders that will arm themselves, improve their drives, add armour etc. to deflect the pirates attention to an easier target. They don't have to outrun the lion, they just have to outrun you.

I am pretty sure if you commit piracy once you are a pirate, let alone once in a while. We were talking about whether missiles were a good idea on a trader (or actually a player ship). The I raised the possibility of piracy as a reason to carry them as a deterrent (and after a little exploration we found that container missiles would make you much less attractive to a pirate). We had a long conversation about whether piracy was impossible. Then whether it was impossible in certain settings and now finally we are at a point where you concede that attacks are possible but are now trying to redefine what a pirate is.

 

[swordtart]

It would also depend on system security.

I'd put a space buoy every hundred thousand klix, as an navigation aid, and to ping any nearby spacecraft, along the registered spacelanes.

You get anything suspicious, and an inspection boat is sent to take a look.

Or a probe.

In the meantime, local traffic gets updated with a warning to avoid that area.

Under those assumptions of how space in the 100D area is managed that is perfectly possible (depending on your definition of "suspicious")

 

[actionman]

Considering a more modern take.

Buying the flight schedules, destinations, and/or cargo inventory, of departing freighters.

Something similar happened in Tortuga. People in the commerce houses informed the pirates of ships going out and what they were carrying. Pirates would attack the ships then fence the loot at the commerce houses and give the informants a cut on top of that. I'm not remembering it all that clearly, it was either commerce houses, insurance underwriters, or other people involved who had a need to know which ships were carrying what. I know it wasn't customs or government. And yes, the insurance underwriters were screwing over their employer and their employer's clients because they were corrupt.

 

[actionman]

I'd put a space buoy every hundred thousand klix, as an navigation aid, and to ping any nearby spacecraft, along the registered spacelanes.

A network of them perhaps, with passive sensors to detect ships and listen for transponders. If a buoy gets a ship / no transponder event, it sends a laser comm or meson comm alert ping to the local customs / security fleet. Planetary fleet headquarters would have a very good idea about who's in their space at any given time, over time. As soon as they see someone who's new, they could intercept on general principle to see who's who in zoo.

 

[actionman]

Pirates would prefer not to attack at all. It wastes missiles, risks damage to your ship, risks killing your target's crew which will create bad feeling and may prevent them from conducting further trade, killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I wonder if such a thing as "hospitality pirates" could emerge. The pirates would confront a ship, demand they turn over the cargo, and if the merchant crew surrenders without incident the pirates treat them to a 5 star meal and luxurious hospitality until the transfer of cargo is complete. It would encourage merchants to promptly surrender, pirates would get loot without a fight, and nobody gets hurt. The insurer would bear the loss and the merchant crew would be blameless. The pirates could even agree to leave any cargo personally owned by merchant crewmembers. Such a practice could even build relationships between merchants and pirates. Pirates could transmit "full hospitality" with their demands, so the merchant crews and passengers know they'll be perfectly safe.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Terry Mixon]

I wonder if such a thing as "hospitality pirates" could emerge. The pirates would confront a ship, demand they turn over the cargo, and if the merchant crew surrenders without incident the pirates treat them to a 5 star meal and luxurious hospitality until the transfer of cargo is complete. It would encourage merchants to promptly surrender, pirates would get loot without a fight, and nobody gets hurt. The insurer would bear the loss and the merchant crew would be blameless. The pirates could even agree to leave any cargo personally owned by merchant crewmembers. Such a practice could even build relationships between merchants and pirates. Pirates could transmit "full hospitality" with their demands, so the merchant crews and passengers know they'll be perfectly safe.

And if a pirate violated that promise, the other pirates would hunt them down. They might even do some reverse piratry and turn a bunch of stuff from the offenders to the wronged party to save their reputations.

 

[swordtart]

I wonder if such a thing as "hospitality pirates" could emerge. The pirates would confront a ship, demand they turn over the cargo, and if the merchant crew surrenders without incident the pirates treat them to a 5 star meal and luxurious hospitality until the transfer of cargo is complete. It would encourage merchants to promptly surrender, pirates would get loot without a fight, and nobody gets hurt. The insurer would bear the loss and the merchant crew would be blameless. The pirates could even agree to leave any cargo personally owned by merchant crewmembers. Such a practice could even build relationships between merchants and pirates. Pirates could transmit "full hospitality" with their demands, so the merchant crews and passengers know they'll be perfectly safe.

Something like that existed in 17th Century Warfare. A garrison defending a city was expected to defend it. Once it was clear that they were outgunned and siege works had been raised they were permitted to surrender with honour intact. They would then be permitted to leave. To show honour to an enemy that had defended a city valiantly the besiegers might permit them to leave with drums playing and colours flying and musketeers would be permitted to leave with their guns loaded, match lit at both ends and musket balls in mouth ready to reload to show there was no betrayal planned or expected. Garrisons that failed to surrender subjecting both the two armies and the citizens to unnecessary casualties and hardship might be slaughtered to a man.

 

[Vormaerin]

Why are there unarmed merchants in these dangerous areas? How does the pirate know they are unarmed? Why does the merchant cooperate?

You are operating within close range of a port. If the port is completely helpless and can't even send a wing of fighters to aid merchants, much less a corvette, then the merchants coming here are not going to be unarmed. And they aren't going to be careless. If you have unarmed merchants, its because they feel safe, which means escorts or a port with patrols.

Look at the rules. It's 93 Thrust-Turns to close from Distant to Docking in ship combat. Each of those turns is 6 minutes. Ship shows up at Distant range heading towards you. You call the port. Port will tell them to veer off. If they don't, you run away from it and the port sends whatever nasties it has to help.

The fastest that guy can run you down is an hour and a half or so if they are high thrust, which a converted merchantship turned pirate isn't going to be. Meanwhile, response from the port is maybe 2 hours, because they don't have to maneuver and slow down to match vectors with a ship they want to board.

The pirate has to catch merchant, steal the cargo, and escape to the 100D limit and jump away all in a very narrow window. And if you allow the system to actually have patrols out near where ships arrive, that window is zilch.

Even if he does all that, the pirate now has two ships (a raider & a trader), corrupt port officials that accept stolen goods lacking documentation, and all the rest to sustain themselves.

That kind of thing can exist in a wilds. That's why the Trojan Reach is the setting for the Pirates of Drinax adventure. There are no powerful states in the area, there is significant trade passing through, and the PCs have a real warship, not a converted merchantman. They are actually privateers with the full support of a government.

Inside a real government area operating as a freelance pirate, your "Unusually Daring Pirate" of the encounter tables is going to have the "Old, Bold Pirate" problem. He's going to be especially daring and then he's going to be dead.

Btw, your space encounter chart is ROLL EVERY DAY. So that's a roll coming in and a roll going out. That's why I said every year or two.

 

[Geir]

I wonder if such a thing as "hospitality pirates" could emerge. The pirates would confront a ship, demand they turn over the cargo, and if the merchant crew surrenders without incident the pirates treat them to a 5 star meal and luxurious hospitality until the transfer of cargo is complete. It would encourage merchants to promptly surrender, pirates would get loot without a fight, and nobody gets hurt. The insurer would bear the loss and the merchant crew would be blameless. The pirates could even agree to leave any cargo personally owned by merchant crewmembers. Such a practice could even build relationships between merchants and pirates. Pirates could transmit "full hospitality" with their demands, so the merchant crews and passengers know they'll be perfectly safe.

They got 4 stars on Yelp.. well, on average, the dead victims never submitted a review...

 

[actionman]

And if a pirate violated that promise, the other pirates would hunt them down. They might even do some reverse piratry and turn a bunch of stuff from the offenders to the wronged party to save their reputations.

Those mangy rogues who violate the Pirates' Code might find all pirate havens closed to them, and informants informing on them at their every step. The most incorrigible might find a pirate armada surprising them around some barren rock or freeport. But, most likely it will be a knife in the dark, sabotaged repairs, or poisoned ale.

Something like that might even mitigate the behavior of player characters.

It reminds me of that old movie M where the criminals of the city capture a murderer and hold their own trial, because the murderer's crimes have brought the police down on all of them.

 

[actionman]

 

[swordtart]

Btw, your space encounter chart is ROLL EVERY DAY. So that's a roll coming in and a roll going out. That's why I said every year or two.

2 years then.

I am not going to respond to your main post in more detail because you keep moving the goal posts and I don't believe you are really interested in exploring this. To refute your assertions would require me to actually run the combat in Vector Based combat and I don't think you would accept the results even if they disproved you so it would be a waste of my time.

I'll stick with my interpretation.

 

[swordtart]

They got 4 stars on Yelp.. well, on average, the dead victims never submitted a review...

Sadly I have builders who seem to follow this exact strategy. They don't actually kill you but they do delete your review.

 

[Geir]

Sadly I have builders who seem to follow this exact strategy. They don't actually kill you but they do delete your review.

Sadly I just (half a hour ago) had window installers show up without their scheduler checking with us first and without their English translator. I suppose I could have shot at them or called 911 to get them to stop, but neither of those options seemed like I good idea, since they already removed a window... Yeah, that forthcoming review... I'm gonna demand a bribe discount not to give them a review.

 

[Condottiere]

It's probably simpler to switch the cargo while the freighter was still docked.

Then, have a raider board the freighter, steal the earmarked cargo, and lay a false trail into another system.

 

[Vormaerin]

Nah, my point has been the same all along. The nature of how jump drive works and what is required for piracy in space means that it is not practical inside the Imperium. The jump boundary to orbit area seems big, but it actually isn't when you think about how space movement works and how people react to threats.

There are places you can have traditional space piracy. There are things that are required: some kind of institutional support for repairs & trade (a class A or B starport), a steady supply of trade so you can pick and choose viable targets, and inability of major powers to patrol the region. The Barbary Pirates had that, the African Coast had that, the Caribbean had that. The places where piracy exists today have that.

If you want piracy inside the Imperium, you need to expand that zone so everyone isn't so close to the starport, the core of the Imperial presence in the system. Put stations, colonies, secondary worlds all over most systems. That means there are ships moving between planets that are not within close response range. It means there are so many spaceports that it is possible to conceal a corrupt one without epic levels of corruption. And it means there is a lot more ships in general to deal with. You need actual trade lanes for pirates to interfere with. And jumping from the edge of a planet to the edge of a planet doesn't provide that.

I don't care what the sample encounter chart says. It is not reasonable that there is a pirate attack weekly in Mora, which said chart suggests if applied as a rule. There are hundreds of ships arriving per week, so statistically applying that chart means 1+ a week. Which is why it doesn't happen that way.

It is the GM's responsibility to set the stage to produce the sort of environment they want to play in. Of course, you and your players may just be like "none of that matters to us" and that's fine. But if your players jump into Mora and get attacked by a pirate and go "WTF, the Navy is RIGHT THERE!!", you will have a problem.

There's a nice article in Mongoose Traveller JTAS 1 that discusses Piracy on the Spinward Main that talks about where pirates might operate, but it does conclude that those pirate bases are going to be outside the Imperium.

If you want piracy in the Aramis trace or some other region of Imperial space, you'll want a Fifth Frontier War like event to have commerce raiders and a shortage of military ships. Because inside the Imperium, those starports that can actually repair and supply ships are run by the Imperial government.

 

[actionman]

The places where piracy exists today have that.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Arkathan]

Sadly I just (half a hour ago) had window installers show up without their scheduler checking with us first and without their English translator. I suppose I could have shot at them or called 911 to get them to stop, but neither of those options seemed like I good idea, since they already removed a window... Yeah, that forthcoming review... I'm gonna demand a bribe discount not to give them a review.

My wife wanted to kill our first door installer, when we replaced our original doors. No English, No Translator, No literacy. So the door was not installed per the instructions, much less to code. The inspector came out and helped us file a complaint. That contractor got dropped and the inspector made sure the not-to-be-named big box store got another contractor out to fix the many errors, although that took several weeks.