Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

[Condottiere]

I guess you could look at piracy as a start up, and costs need to be covered by either personal credit, or an angel investor.

In game mechanic terms, the founders might actually be that, they found a starship that doesn't appear to have a current owner, who's recognized as such.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You need a Boskone.

 

[Vormaerin]

The question of 'who do pirates prey on' is a tricky one that is going to depend heavily on how you think trade works in your setting.

The PC ships are generally 100 to 200 tons because PCs are generally small groups more interested in getting somewhere for adventure than anything else. But that's not the right size for a profitable trade ship. That's the freelancer/tramp trader scavenging the leftover trade after the corporate types scoop up all the goodies. Unless your setting is some back of beyond where no one has organized trade.

Even if you don't have mega traders (which I generally am not fond of), the 1000 to 2000 ton freighters and liners are significantly more likely to be the corporate tradeship of choice. They are simply more profitable by a significant margin.

Even poor backwater worlds that have to pay ships to visit them seem to use the 400 and 600 ton range for subsidized shipping. And probably only go that low because their shipping volumes are not high enough to justify a more efficient, larger vessel.

Obviously, there are private yachts, lab ships, etc and such as well. How prevalant the 200 ton yachts and such are is another setting specific choice. IRL, pirates normally tackle the small yachts and more often hijack them than "pirate" them. But if you envision a lot of people rich enough to afford a small space yacht but not rich enough to afford a larger, safer one. that's a possible target. However, pirates after yachts are either going for ransoms or stealing the entire ship, as cargo isn't really gonna be enough profit off such vessels.

 

[swordtart]

The question of 'who do pirates prey on' is a tricky one that is going to depend heavily on how you think trade works in your setting.

The PC ships are generally 100 to 200 tons because PCs are generally small groups more interested in getting somewhere for adventure than anything else. But that's not the right size for a profitable trade ship. That's the freelancer/tramp trader scavenging the leftover trade after the corporate types scoop up all the goodies. Unless your setting is some back of beyond where no one has organized trade.

Even if you don't have mega traders (which I generally am not fond of), the 1000 to 2000 ton freighters and liners are significantly more likely to be the corporate tradeship of choice. They are simply more profitable by a significant margin.

Even poor backwater worlds that have to pay ships to visit them seem to use the 400 and 600 ton range for subsidized shipping. And probably only go that low because their shipping volumes are not high enough to justify a more efficient, larger vessel.

Obviously, there are private yachts, lab ships, etc and such as well. How prevalant the 200 ton yachts and such are is another setting specific choice. IRL, pirates normally tackle the small yachts and more often hijack them than "pirate" them. But if you envision a lot of people rich enough to afford a small space yacht but not rich enough to afford a larger, safer one. that's a possible target. However, pirates after yachts are either going for ransoms or stealing the entire ship, as cargo isn't really gonna be enough profit off such vessels.

I don't see the presence of 400-600 ton ships necessarily preventing there being any trade for a 200 ton ship to benefit from. Speculative cargos are highly variable in price because they are opportunity cargos. Scheduled ships will be picking up the cargos negotiated months or years in advance. Manufacturers do not generally produce the exact quantity ordered. It is common to have a risk budget added as the penalties for under production are often severe. Your safety margin of over production is what the tramps pick up.

Smaller ships on their own schedule can also spend a bit more time searching out markets direct from manufacturers. They may also be picking up substandard goods, or even unused raw materials or even certain types of "waste". IRL A by product of furniture making is wood scraps these are often sold on to crafters or as firewood. Sawdust can be processed into fuel briquettes etc.

Different speculative cargos have different profitability. A merchant that can afford a 600 Ton ship can probably afford to buy the higher value cargos. As pointed out in other posts, there is little money in shipping Common Consumables even if you happen to get a really favourable purchase price and can guarantee a good sale price.

Even with standard freight there is always someone who needs to ship 10 tons of rubber dog poo at the last minute.

Incompetent traders who haven't planned out their logistics are exactly the kind of people Big Corps will avoid dealing with and the smaller tramp traders have to.

 

[Arkathan]

I still say the way to make a profit on Common Consumables is to fill your cargo bay with Sword Worlder beer, travel to the Imperium and sell it as Luxury Consumables.

 

[Condottiere]

You fill the tanks with some water from a resort world, pump them full with byproducts of the crew's breathing, and sell it as premium pristine carbonated water on a rich planet.

 

[actionman]

The question of 'who do pirates prey on' is a tricky one that is going to depend heavily on how you think trade works in your setting.

I wonder if pirates are the people who live in a poorly policed region, instead of dedicated criminals. They don't need to pirate all the time, but when an outsider trader shows up, fat and sleek, they're not above taking a prize with the connivance of the local authorities for a cut. They get the cargo for free and sell it for cheap on their worlds, so trade continues.

If it happens too much, trade will dry up or merchants will bring escorts. At that point the pirates go back to their regular lives as merchantmen, belt miners, or even planetary navy crews, until the merchants' guard drops again. I wonder how piracy as an occasional opportunistic treat would work as opposed to a full time job.

 

[Arkathan]

You fill the tanks with some water from a resort world, pump them full with byproducts of the crew's breathing, and sell it as premium pristine carbonated water on a rich planet.

I suppose that is no worse that sifting through pouncer droppings for "processed" coffee beans.

 

[AndrewW]

I still say the way to make a profit on Common Consumables is to fill your cargo bay with Sword Worlder beer, travel to the Imperium and sell it as Luxury Consumables.

Fill the fuel tanks with beer and avoid import taxes.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Fill the fuel tanks with beer and avoid import taxes.

There's at least one short story and one song (unrelated) about spacecraft that use beer as fuel...

 

[Condottiere]

 

[swordtart]

I wonder if pirates are the people who live in a poorly policed region, instead of dedicated criminals. They don't need to pirate all the time, but when an outsider trader shows up, fat and sleek, they're not above taking a prize with the connivance of the local authorities for a cut. They get the cargo for free and sell it for cheap on their worlds, so trade continues.

If it happens too much, trade will dry up or merchants will bring escorts. At that point the pirates go back to their regular lives as merchantmen, belt miners, or even planetary navy crews, until the merchants' guard drops again. I wonder how piracy as an occasional opportunistic treat would work as opposed to a full time job.

We only need them to be pirates every 108 visits

Not only can they go back to their day jobs in the planetary Navy, they can probably claim to have "chased off that pirate" when the Imperial Navy asks for their report, maybe get a medal, promotion or some reward. I am pretty sure there was a historical pirate that went that way (it might have been Captain Kidd who started out as a pirate hunter and then decides to work the other side of the street).

The criminals acting as police is a great idea. To reduce crime honest police have to work harder, criminal just need to work less hard

 

[Vormaerin]

I don't see the presence of 400-600 ton ships necessarily preventing there being any trade for a 200 ton ship to benefit from.

I didn't say that small traders don't exist. I said that small freighters are not going to be what is used for the vast majority of trade, because they are inefficient and less profitable than larger ships.

This gets back to the fact that piracy requires the reliable presence of trade. The reliable trade is going to be on larger ships. Those Type A ships will be around, but they don't follow a schedule, they aren't guaranteed to have full cargo bays, and don't necessarily follow the big trade routes.

The idea of dedicated pirates trying to make a living solely off that does not make sense.

 

[Vormaerin]

I wonder if pirates are the people who live in a poorly policed region, instead of dedicated criminals. They don't need to pirate all the time, but when an outsider trader shows up, fat and sleek, they're not above taking a prize with the connivance of the local authorities for a cut. They get the cargo for free and sell it for cheap on their worlds, so trade continues.

If it happens too much, trade will dry up or merchants will bring escorts. At that point the pirates go back to their regular lives as merchantmen, belt miners, or even planetary navy crews, until the merchants' guard drops again. I wonder how piracy as an occasional opportunistic treat would work as opposed to a full time job.

The vast majority of actual piracy is likely to fall into one of two categories:

1) Long prepared "Ocean's Eleven" level schemes to nail a specific target, probably with as much hijacking or barratry as actual piracy.

2) Spur of the moment piracy like was shown in that Firefly episode where the 'rescue' ship tried to take over the Serenity when it was disabled.

The idea of pirate vessels hanging around looking for targets to chance into their area of operation is not reasonable. That happens in very specific sorts of circumstances and, you mentioned, that will either end trade or result in increased military escorts for the traders if it continues.

 

[Condottiere]

Considering a more modern take.

Buying the flight schedules, destinations, and/or cargo inventory, of departing freighters.

 

[swordtart]

I didn't say that small traders don't exist. I said that small freighters are not going to be what is used for the vast majority of trade, because they are inefficient and less profitable than larger ships.

This gets back to the fact that piracy requires the reliable presence of trade. The reliable trade is going to be on larger ships. Those Type A ships will be around, but they don't follow a schedule, they aren't guaranteed to have full cargo bays, and don't necessarily follow the big trade routes.

The idea of dedicated pirates trying to make a living solely off that does not make sense.

Off the mains the smaller ships were supposed to be the more common ones. Its like trains, they don't go to every town. They go to major ones and people get buses or taxis or use their own vehicles to their final destination.

If you produce 400 Tons every quarter it doesn't come in one 400 ton lump. More likely a few 10's of tons per week. That is plenty to keep a 200 Ton ship busy every week, but of no interest to a ship that can take 400 tons as that amount will never accumulate if the littles cart it off regularly.

It depends what you mean by the vast majority of trade. A 1000 Ton capacity freighter will move 1000 tons per jump. 10 Free Traders might move 800 Tons. The majority of trade goods are being moved by the freighter, but the majority of trade journeys are being carried out by the free traders as they are conducting 10 trade missions to the freighters one.

I didn't say that this was the only source of income for a pirate.

How many ships do I actually have to loot?

I only need KCr5 a month to live like a Baron. Lets say KCr100 for the whole crew. Maintenance and repairs and replenishment KCr50. Mortgage KCr250 per month because I have souped up subbie. Total monthly expenses KCr400. Plus a small amount for rescue bubbles for spaced crews (because I am the gentleman pirate). Say MCr5 per year.

That is a lot of Common Consumables I have to sell, but non-one is shipping them at Cr500 per ton. A more credible average base value for cargo is KCr10 per ton. I need to steal 500 tons per year to cover that. That is 1 ship a month assuming around 40-50 tons per ship.

But:
Am I actually paying a mortgage? - Pirate! That would reduce my expenses by at least half.
Do I need that large a crew. I could use robots instead and save a fortune in the longer term.
KCR10 is a sensible price for common goods, but I could make MCR1 per Dton for Radioactives. If I select my target intelligently I might bring the average price of seized goods to KCr20 without too much effort.
If I have a good broker (one of them fancy robots) and I am not necessarily in a hurry to sell the cargo I might make 10-20% on top.
If the target is uncooperative then I'll loot the Ships lockers and Staterooms as well to supplement my income.
Sometimes I might get a small ship and make my yearly quota in one go.
I don't have to be a pirate full time, I can carry on legitimate trade as well. It gives me a good cover and might pays the bills on its own.
If I am careful I might even get a normal freight job and just keep the cargo instead. It is more risky and I'll need to sell the ship and burn my identity and move out of the area afterwards, but it's easy money.
I might just go raiding and robbing on occasion (or get legit mercenary work - and do robbing and raiding on the side)
I might occasionally demand tribute from small undefended systems and bases. Not too often or predictably and after a careful recce.
Some pirates might sell their captives into slavery or ransom them. I don't because I am the Gentleman Pirate, but all those droids are coming with me to add to my robo-pirate crew. Quick memory wipe and were off to the races.

I don't think it is implausible and frankly MCr5 per year is a fantastic amount of money, but once you have some seed capital you can make it easily through trade. If you don't need the seed capital because you stole the cargo, it is all profit and you kick start your trader career.

 

[Vormaerin]

That was a lot of text to agree with my statement.

 

[swordtart]

That was a lot of text to agree with my statement.

Pretty sure what I said above disagrees with most of the statements quoted.

The majority of trade is NOT provided by regular shipments by large traders.
Piracy does NOT rely on the regular presence of large trade ships.
The straw man argument you put forward of dedicated pirates living off hanging around a single system waiting for the occasional 100 tons ship is NOT how the majority of pirates will need to operate. That does NOT mean you will not occasionally meet a pirate if you choose to conduct trade in a 100-200 ton ship even if you are picking up scraps on the main.

I don't think pirates need to operate like a slick heist team (though some certainly might). Oceans Eleven operations were against heavily protected assets, they were not muggers (which is effectively what a pirate is).
I don't think pirates need to operate like ad-hoc bandits who prey on disabled ships (though some certainly might). Just happening across a ship that is disabled is a pirates dream, not a business model.

But if you agree with all that then job done.

Pirates will be opportunistic when required and prepared enough to exploit opportunity, but they don't need to be particularly sophisticated to knock off the average free trader as it is unarmed, unarmoured and half blind. The move on to another system.

The reason such attacks are successful (and that traders don't bother upgrading) is that pirates only pop up for the average trader in ordinary systems once every 108 trips. Or put another way about 1% of ships visiting a system will meet a pirate. Using the World Builders Handbook ordinary systems have 10-30 ships a week so they can expect for a pirate encounter to occur every 4-20 weeks. This is assuming the pirate actually follows through with the attack and doesn't decide it isn't worth his while. In target rich environments the pirate can afford to be picky. For less important systems they may only get an encounter every 6 months or so (but the pirate is more likely to follow through with the attack).

A system getting an actual attack every month might well beef up its defences, but if it is only those crappy little traders getting hit then it might simply put out an advisory and let them take their chances. In those less important systems the pirate may end up selling his goods locally and in effect the trade hasn't been affected, just who benefits from it so they probably don't care. The number of ships visiting won't change much as no-one wanted to got there anyway. You pirate encounter here might even be a pirate looking to sell on some cargo rather than planning to attack.

 

[Condottiere]

It would also depend on system security.

I'd put a space buoy every hundred thousand klix, as an navigation aid, and to ping any nearby spacecraft, along the registered spacelanes.

You get anything suspicious, and an inspection boat is sent to take a look.

Or a probe.

In the meantime, local traffic gets updated with a warning to avoid that area.

 

[Vormaerin]

1% piracy rate is insanely high. That means that any given ship can reasonably expect to encounter a pirate once every year or two and then you claim they are gonna be unarmed? Plus, you think that your putative pirate is going to be a paramilitary ship (since they'll have upgraded sensors and armaments, which you clearly think is not normal for a merchant) and still able to routinely trade (with brokers!).

I don't recall if Mongoose still limits what armaments that civilian ships can have. Used to be only lasers, sandcasters, and basic missiles in turrets. But maybe that went by the wayside. If not, that's all your mostly legitimate pirate will have as weaponry.

But the reason I think your post agrees with me is that your pirate is basically barely pirating. He's just a trader who is willing to steal if the opportunity comes his way. He's clearly clean enough that he can deal in legitimate ports instead of backwater pirate havens with fences paying fractions on the credit for stolen goods. And he apparently doesn't attack armed, alert ships.

I'm not saying that no ship ever attacks another ship, but the idea of anyone being primarily a pirate just isn't feasible within a large interstellar polity in a setting using Jump drives, which keep ships within contact of ports nearly all the time.