Worst rule in the whole game

[jfox61]

Hee Hee

I played my son today. I won 1 st game move initiative. My Prinz Eugen Fires at his Dorsetshire from extreme range scoring 1 hit. I roll a six!!! possible crit I roll another six Definite Crit!!! I roll double six!!! vital systems hit Guess whats coming next. Yep I roll my final six BOOM!!! catastrophic explosion no more Dorsetshire. I agree its a bummer if it happens to you but just to picture his face as it happened was more than worth it. It isn't a crap rule these things happened in history. I will tell you what is a crap rule though. Armoured decks thats what. I may be reading the rule wrong but if I hit his King George V with my Bismarck at long to extreme I get +1 to penetrate for my ap bonus but he gets +1 for his armour cancelling it out. Therefore I need a six to penetrate which is also a possible crit hit. But if the same thing happens at under 20" I fire at his belt armour which is a six to hit but with my +1 means a 5 or 6. Armoured decks typically were about 4-6 inches thick but belt armour was around 14-18 inches thick so why do I need more to penetrate deck armour than I do to penetrat belt armour. Now that is what I call a crap rule!!!

 

[BuShips]

Hee Hee

I played my son today. I won 1 st game move initiative. My Prinz Eugen Fires at his Dorsetshire from extreme range scoring 1 hit. I roll a six!!! possible crit I roll another six Definite Crit!!! I roll double six!!! vital systems hit Guess whats coming next. Yep I roll my final six BOOM!!! catastrophic explosion no more Dorsetshire. I agree its a bummer if it happens to you but just to picture his face as it happened was more than worth it. It isn't a crap rule these things happened in history. I will tell you what is a crap rule though. Armoured decks thats what. I may be reading the rule wrong but if I hit his King George V with my Bismarck at long to extreme I get +1 to penetrate for my ap bonus but he gets +1 for his armour cancelling it out. Therefore I need a six to penetrate which is also a possible crit hit. But if the same thing happens at under 20" I fire at his belt armour which is a six to hit but with my +1 means a 5 or 6. Armoured decks typically were about 4-6 inches thick but belt armour was around 14-18 inches thick so why do I need more to penetrate deck armour than I do to penetrat belt armour. Now that is what I call a crap rule!!!

Well, specifically the armoured deck cancels the long/extreme DD +1 bonus, so you would still get the AP DD +1 bonus of your battleship guns. Don't forget to use your improved rangefinder AD bonus for the Kriegsmarine, as it is listed as a fleet list rule and but not repeated in the individual ship stats.

 

[DM]

You get a false impression of the armour penetration problem if you think purely in terms of armour thickness. You also need to consider the angle that the shell is hitting. everyone thinks of "plunging fire" as coming in nearly vertically, but its MUCH shallower than that. As aresult the apparent thickness of the armour is much greater than its actual thickness, plus there is a much higher chance of ricochet, and often a great deal of secondary structure on top of the armoured deck to ge through.

 

[Makoto]

(back to the original "rant")

Things happen. Same chance for own ship leaving for Low Earth Orbit as for enemys - and it makes the game more fun, yet another example of random meanness everyone has to watch out for. After all ovecoming this kind of difficulties is what makes the game so much fun (in any system), not the ability to wipe out the enemy in neat, smart and riskless way.

 

[Burger]

Things happen. Same chance for own ship leaving for Low Earth Orbit as for enemys - and it makes the game more fun, yet another example of random meanness everyone has to watch out for. After all ovecoming this kind of difficulties is what makes the game so much fun (in any system), not the ability to wipe out the enemy in neat, smart and riskless way.

So pray tell, how exactly do you "overcome" your opponent insta-killing your War level ship in turn 1? What do you "watch out for"? What strategy can you use to defeat this?

It's a 1-dice-roll insta-game-win which requires no skill to pull off, and has no counter-strategy. Thats not my idea of "fun" and not what I play the game for.

 

[Makoto]

Oh, it's most certainly not an insta-game-winner - just try to think in a bit broader range that "I've just lost a ship to a single critical hit". What is the scenario objective? Is it a blocade run, where the important thing is to get as many of own ships through as possible? Or maybe it's a suicide-style attempt to bleed the enemy squadron in order to hold it off until main force arrives? mayhaps You're just closing in on enemy transports, with a handfull of capitals between Your guns and supplies for the entire enemy army group? Those are just first examples that come to mind, but in all of them You're still perfectly able to win. Just remember that destruction of enemy (and own) vessels is secondary to achieving objectives (up to a certain point, obviously)

When one of my ships gets blown (never happened to me in VSA, but it did in BattleSpace and Man'o'War though) apart with a single lucky hit I don't just give the game up. Instead am trying to salvage as much as possible, adjusting my tactics to what's left and (most importantly) what is my goal and the enemy one, when possible utilising the fact that enemy often gets overconfident in this case. Simply speaking am playing along my luck - and never, ever put all my trust into a single, "supermighty" vessel.

Sure, there are some bugs in VSA, but that particular rule definitely isn't one of them.

 

[DM]

It's a 1-dice-roll insta-game-win which requires no skill to pull off, and has no counter-strategy. Thats not my idea of "fun" and not what I play the game for.

No, its a reflection of "Real Life". I'm sure Lancelot Holland would have preferred it if such a "rule" didn't appear in reality. Unfortunately it does. You, however, have the benefit of ignoring it if you think it has ruined your gaming evening.

 

[Poi]

Sure, there are some bugs in VSA, but that particular rule definitely isn't one of them.

So you think I could still win a game facing two Nagatos and a Yamato with a Sovietsky Soyuz and an Archangelsk?

Regardless of mission, this is game over, I promise you.

 

[Makoto]

Depending on the mission You could've still pulled this one off. Also, regardless of the goals - terrain features (any islands/fog strands, or just plain table?) and weather play extremely large part in this, imagine Your both ships can outmaneuver enemy into fighting lone Nagato, finishing her off, then tackling another, and then fighting against the last survivor. Granted, very difficult to pull this one off, but not impossible.

Have more faith and cunning, Hammer.

 

[Poi]

Plain table, no weather.

My opponenet kept his capital ships together precisely to avoid the possibility of getting split off and sunk one at a time, just the same as I will always do.

It's the best way to concentrate fire, hence why in real life ships tended to form squadrons.

 

[Burger]

It's a 1-dice-roll insta-game-win which requires no skill to pull off, and has no counter-strategy. Thats not my idea of "fun" and not what I play the game for.

No, its a reflection of "Real Life".

Like I said; thats not what I play the game for. If I wanted real life I'd join the navy

 

[Court Jester]

Not wanting to sound too negative or whatnot and I can understand that there might sometimes be a way to fight out of the hole or have the destruction of the ship not matter for much...

Sadly it was just a "victory at sea" scenario.

The two groups of Battleships were opposite each other diagonally across the table. There was no chance of singling out a Nagato. THe entire engagement never really got closer that 28-20".

 

[Makoto]

This is why the famous Battles for Great, Open Parking Lot make little fun in any system - no real place for maneuvers, nor for outsmarting the opponent...

Such a simple thing as few handkerchiefs thrown as fog strands blocking LoS here and there change the game completely, giving it completely new dimension. Add some islands (even as simple as shapes drawn on paper and placed for "counts as an island") and even such ridiculous scenarios as "three destroyers against a battleship" become interesting and not all that one-sided.

 

[Myrm]

BY taking a big ship with lots of eggs in one basket in a game with a small chance of dying in one shot you have just made a tactical decision in your fleet design - so there is an element of it affecting fleet planning. The presence of the rule does make you have to be careful so as not to overspend on one asset.

Then BBs hqve to become part of a fleet, maybe the powerful unit in it, but be the bulk of the fleet.

A good hit from one torpedo spread is not exactly that unlikely and for many many ships IS a one hit kill. IJN ships with 4/4s doing 16 points plus about a number of other crits will be the death of many and isnt too unlikely in comparison to the one dice and catastrophic crit roll. Both are still one shot from one ship that kill in one go - OK its not likely to affect the BIG BBs but why be precious about them when a decent size cruiser in dominates lower priority games in the same way.

I can see why people might want to ameliorate it - particularly if you want to slug out a historical scenario and take time, but for tournament purposes it seems to affect decisions and throw a bit of uncertainty up.

 

[DM]

and even such ridiculous scenarios as "three destroyers against a battleship" become interesting and not all that one-sided.

Speaking as someone who once sank the Yamato with a single salvo** from a US destroyer (whilst playing a set of historically highly accurate rules) I wouldn't say that was too ridiculous

**the odds against it were astronomical and it did take 7 hours of game time to achieve but the Yamato did indeed sink!

 

[Court Jester]

This is why the famous Battles for Great, Open Parking Lot make little fun in any system - no real place for maneuvers, nor for outsmarting the opponent...

Such a simple thing as few handkerchiefs thrown as fog strands blocking LoS here and there change the game completely, giving it completely new dimension. Add some islands (even as simple as shapes drawn on paper and placed for "counts as an island") and even such ridiculous scenarios as "three destroyers against a battleship" become interesting and not all that one-sided.

Lets not get condescending now eh...

We are aware of this mystical thing called scenery.

However scenery can easily lead to a "chase the battleship around the island" styled game... fun fun fun.

I must admit the title of this thread is genius... Just the right tone of whinging and hyperbole to get a good react... ahem... discussion.

 

[Court Jester]

it did take 7 hours of game time to achieve

So not that interesting then...

 

[DM]

So not that interesting then...

Actually it was. It took place during a campaign set in the Soomons. One of my DDs got ittself lost in fog and came round an island to find itself at close quarters with the Yamato. It fired off a quick salvo of 5" before being blown to atoms by the Japanese BB and her escorts. The 5" hits did nothing except start a small fire in the boat bays aft in the ship. However, that was enough as the Japanese player proved toatlly incapable of rolling the scores he needed to fight the fires, which steadily grew. All the time the campaign was continuing, but Yamato hauled out of the Japanese battle line after 4 game hours with a (by now) raging fire back aft which had engulfed the seaplane hangar. After another 3 game hours the fires reached the aft magazines which went up, blowing the back off the ship and sinking her. We calcualted the odds of it happening and it was millions to one against.

 

[Makoto]

However scenery can easily lead to a "chase the battleship around the island" styled game... fun fun fun.

Good - that means both players will be thinking and maneuvering instead of just rolling. I like it - especially if my opponent get's too caught up with the chase to forget his mission

 

[Myrm]

Scenery I think might add a lot to the game, advanced weather, islands and so on would all make for fun scenarios.

Hmmm, thinktank time says he running to do some ideas.

Any meteorologists here have any idea how big a squall is, or possibly how small it can be or would we be dealing with lines across the table as weather fronts? eg Bad weather up to 12" in from one end that advances 6" per turn?