Will P&P address PL?

[Da Boss]

slightly off topic but I always thought the size of the gun was reflected by its traits/range and just assumed lots of AD usually (with the exception of beams) meant that there was well, lots of guns................for some reason however I saw the AD of beams as the power of the beam.............

ah well back to the crits thing

 

[l33tpenguin]

slightly off topic but I always thought the size of the gun was reflected by its traits/range and just assumed lots of AD usually (with the exception of beams) meant that there was well, lots of guns................for some reason however I saw the AD of beams as the power of the beam.............

ah well back to the crits thing

Lots of AD can mean either lots of guns OR more powerful guns. It can go either way. Its meant to reflect the 'weapon system' so all the side facing pulse cannons (3 on top 3 on bottom of each side) are reflected in the single pulse cannon weapon listing on the Omega. Just because a Warlock has more AD of Heavy Pulse Cannon than a Chronos (exact same traits other than AD) doesn't always mean the Warlock has bigger Heavy Pulse Cannons, it might just have more of them.

Its my interpretation of the traits and rules that indicate that weapon systems are fairly similar across multiple hulls. The main difference is the number of them. A Chronos more than likely is mounting the exact same pulse cannon as is on the warlock. The warlock just has more of them.

Someone brought up a comparison of cars earlier. If you showed me the acceleration, horse power, handling, torque, etc, of two cars and they came out the same, chances are they are at least nearly the same automobile, and I would expect them to perform similar. Its not like one is going to do far better than the other provided they are put through the same tests.

I don't like the 'by PL' idea of crit saving. It doesn't make sense to me. I've provided evidence that weapon systems are the same (or nearly the same) across hulls, why should they have less of an effect if the are hitting a raid level ship vs. hitting an Armageddon level ship?

I also feel it is a very poor option in terms of a balance mechanic. It throws all ships of a PL into the same pot without accounting for Hull values or damage scores. If a balance issue causes a ship to jump a PL, suddenly its relation to ALL other ships has been changed. It can now crit a PL higher or can't be crit by a PL below it (or just has a harder to doing so).

Making a 'Redundancy' trait that is applied to individual ships, like a Hull score vs. crits, is a far easier, balanceable, and manageable *tool* that can be used to manage crit vulnerability. Even as a baseline, applying a minimal score at raid level and increasing up through Armageddon, makes low PL swarms less effective. Diversifying it gives even more flexibility to ship creation. Want a fleet of sturdy hulled ships? Like interceptors or stealth, a fleet designed around a high redundancy score suddenly gains a 'gimmick' to reflect their survivability.

It is also easier to balance, as it is on a per ship basis, just like hull or speed or turns, rather than a dynamic that changes between PL.

 

[Triggy]

except the save is modified by what size ship is shooting at you.
whereas the redundancy makes up for the fact that bigger ships have more redundant systems, but allows any size ship with the same weapon to cause the crit in the 1st place.

the wrestler shot in the leg is more likely to live and not die from shock than the kid but if they survive then both is as likely to walk.
the same can be said of crits, the big ship is more likely to survive a crits damage, but if either ship survives they can both carry on.
yes the chance of resisting crits is not taken into effect, as the crit is the same to either ship, however the big ship is more likely to survive and repair that crit.

the save really doesnt work unless every ship using the same weapon has the same AD for that weapon.
currently the kid has a rifle set on single shot whilst the wrestler is firing bursts. which is how ACTA works, the smaller ships have less AD.

Well the alternative to having the saves based upon differences in PL is to have it associated only with the PL of this ship suffering the hit:

Armageddon 2+ save
War 3+ save
Battle 4+ save
Raid 5+ save
Skirmish 6+ save
Patrol no save

This allows criticals still to happen and the Damage/Crew still applies but the effects do not. It all comes down to whether you prefer having fewer crits "stopped" but with more certainty using Redundancy or having more stopped with less certainty using these "saves".

 

[katadder]

any save is too much for a full game, plus as i said what they suddenly found more spare parts? some you save some you dont.

redundancy shows certain size ships have a certain amount of redundant systems but even they couldnt go all game on them.
having a few tick boxes is by far the better option.

also everyone says how bad the abbai are, giving ships amazing saves reduces the abbais ability to fight even more. they rely on crits to do their main damage.

 

[l33tpenguin]

any save is too much for a full game, plus as i said what they suddenly found more spare parts? some you save some you dont.

Not sure what you mean by that? Why is a save vs crits too much for a full game? What is wrong with giving the KBT an 80% chance to avoid suffering a critical effect? And, its not considered magical spare parts, its considered having redundant systems, back up systems, and better fire/damage control

redundancy shows certain size ships have a certain amount of redundant systems but even they couldnt go all game on them.
having a few tick boxes is by far the better option.

Which is book keeping. SOme people want as little book keeping as possible.

also everyone says how bad the abbai are, giving ships amazing saves reduces the abbais ability to fight even more. they rely on crits to do their main damage.

Any sort of change, be it armor values, redundancy trait, crit save, whatever, is going to require rebalancing anyway. And, you can have crits still doing damage, but ignore critical effects, which is the real issue.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

If we don't like a save as a stat, lets redefine it as has been said before as a Hull stat for criticals. An AD only gets to become a hit by rolling equal or higher to the hull score, and a potential crit only gets to become a crit by rolling equal or higher to the durability score.
It cuts down on the paperwork, and neatly avoids the problems of being all then nothing like ignoring the first X criticals is.

 

[tschuma]

Back on page 8 I post something like this as a Special Action. We have already tried it and it seems to work very nice. WE did not use the PL difference, so we will give this a try allso.

tschuma

So how about...

If the target ship is 2 or more PLs above the shooter, then you still roll critical hits as usual. But after, roll a D6 for each critical hit. If you fail to roll 4+ (or 5+ for 3 PLs higher, 6+ for 4 or more PLs higher) then the targetted system was saved, and the critical effects are not applied - although the damage is still applied.

Sounds great to me!!

 

[l33tpenguin]

If any one is interested in looking at my variation on this theme, shoot me a PM with your e-mail and I'll happily e-mail you my house rules. Its still a work in progress and I'm more than happy to have it play tested and reviewed/criticized.

 

[Foxmeister]

So I can't spell. Bite me. :wink:

Doesn't weak in VaS only prevent crits against high hull targets? So low-PL ships with weak guns could crit each other because they have low armour values, but not huge dreadnoughts with high armour values. Seems to work fine and dandy to me, old son? :?

Not according to my VaS rulebook - the wording is almost identical between VaS and ACtA Weak traits. Of course, since I don't really play VaS it may well be that there's been an update I'm not aware of.

Regards,

Dave

Resurrecting an old post, but I've just seen something on the VaS forums that indicate there was an update in VaS for weak weapons against smaller ships:

Weak weapons, that subtract 1 from dd roll, can only cause a potential critical if the target is armour 3 or less. (OOB, page 3)

I've not seen OOB so I can't confirm it, but it looks like you were right!

Regards,

Dave