Why should strength give a bonus to hit?
- Thread starter afro-slav
- Start date
Cimmerian Bard
Mongoose
Exactly. Melee weaponry, particularly from more ancient and Dark Ages eras (as the Hyborian Age seems to mostly emulate, thankfully) are fairly heavy affairs.
And Strength is actually "offset" in Defense, as Parry is modified by Strength.
A good combatant is a combination of speed, agility, and physical strength (and some smarts as well), and so I feel that Conan D20 (or OGL, technically) simulates that quite well.
Having done some martial arts and medieval reenactments, as most of us on these forums likely have, I can attest to needing strength to move heavier weapons quicker and holding back strong opponents' blows. =)
And Strength is actually "offset" in Defense, as Parry is modified by Strength.
A good combatant is a combination of speed, agility, and physical strength (and some smarts as well), and so I feel that Conan D20 (or OGL, technically) simulates that quite well.
Having done some martial arts and medieval reenactments, as most of us on these forums likely have, I can attest to needing strength to move heavier weapons quicker and holding back strong opponents' blows. =)
Originally (in D&D/AD&D)? To define fighters as Strength based characters. Double offensive punch in one stat given that most of your stats were likely to be meaningless because they didn't hit the magic level (13+, 15+, 16+, whatever). Armor gave defense, so Dex wasn't particularly necessary.
In Conan? To make high Strength characters ridiculous badasses who don't need multiple combat stats or armor as a way to fit the genre.
Is rather absurd how useful high Str is for people, but it's even more absurd on monsters. Of course monsters have superhuman strength. But, autohit, autokill on every attack? In another thread, there was the mention of a giant tentacled thing; I can't help but think that giant tentacled things tend to miss heroes since hitting with a tree sized limb kind of sort of kills people, but in Conan, missing is pretty much impossible (5%) due to Str giving to hit bonuses.
Irks me that low Str/high Dex fighters in Conan are useless, but as Clovenhoof has been trying to do, it's always possible to come up with something for such characters in the way of new feats or whatever. I think I'd be fine with dropping to hit bonuses for Str since it seems obvious that Str does too much, for flavor, and for diversity.
In Conan? To make high Strength characters ridiculous badasses who don't need multiple combat stats or armor as a way to fit the genre.
Is rather absurd how useful high Str is for people, but it's even more absurd on monsters. Of course monsters have superhuman strength. But, autohit, autokill on every attack? In another thread, there was the mention of a giant tentacled thing; I can't help but think that giant tentacled things tend to miss heroes since hitting with a tree sized limb kind of sort of kills people, but in Conan, missing is pretty much impossible (5%) due to Str giving to hit bonuses.
Irks me that low Str/high Dex fighters in Conan are useless, but as Clovenhoof has been trying to do, it's always possible to come up with something for such characters in the way of new feats or whatever. I think I'd be fine with dropping to hit bonuses for Str since it seems obvious that Str does too much, for flavor, and for diversity.
Savage Worlds is the game he is referring to.
I've though of putting a cap on the +hit from str non sentient monsters/beasts can get, basically after 22 (+6) they no longer gain + to hit because their size gets in the or they just aint co-ordinated enough to make use of it.
Theres a fencing feat from Argos/Zingara that allows you to add dex to dmg instead of strength while finesse fighting. even without that finesse fighting is pretty damn awesome against heavily armoured opponents especially when combined with feint and sneak attack.
I've thought about the idea of adding two new stats to the game: Weapon skill. either they are rolled for/ have points allocated to them like the other stats or they are derived. Weapon skill will be Strength(or Dex if using a finesse or ranged weapon) and either Wisdom or Intelligence added together and divided by two. would make my earlier adjustment to strength for monsters unnecessary which is fine.
Hmm. While fencing may be agility only, most weapons require at least a basic degree of strength. And success in a fight is not independent of your physical state.
I am a little wary of the extremes though. Once you have enough strength, I'm not convinced more is a lineal improvement. You can bash through parries and things, I suppose, but even then I would expect pretty sharply diminishing returns.
Feel free to de-irk yourself. High dex fighters are effective against armoured foes, and practically the only way to deal with plate.
Well I guess that they choose Str because Dex already drives Armor Class, Reflex Saves and lot of useful skills. Adding attack bonuses to the list would have made Dex a bit too much powerful compared to Strength. I think it's a choice of balance (that word again! :wink
between the characteristics.
On the other hand, I can tell that in real life strength is an important factor when you wield a sword (I'm not talking of fencing here, but of wielding a broadsword or other similar heavy blade).
between the characteristics.On the other hand, I can tell that in real life strength is an important factor when you wield a sword (I'm not talking of fencing here, but of wielding a broadsword or other similar heavy blade).
It all started waaaaay back with OD&D. Originally, Strength offered no adjustment to hitting or damage even though high/low Dex adjusts your to-hit with missiles weapon (booklet 1 Men & Magic - 1974). But then that was changed with the vary first rule supplement (Greyhawk - 1976), when Str finally had to-hit & damage adjustment (not to mention weapons using different dice for damage, and that supplement was also the first time the "18 (00%)" score was used).
At the time, the notion of using Strength to adjust to-hit was based on how the old Chainmail to-hit system was more about "weapon-type vs. armor-type" rolls, then the "PC Class & Level vs. Armor Class" method familiar to most D&D players. So the first method would need Str to adjust the to-hit, because high strength can penetrate armor better. It may seem odd how class & level was not the base for hitting. Your class & level made you powerful in terms of man-power, so a Hero (level 4 Fighting-man) literally fight like 4 men in one, and a Swashbuckler (level 5) was treated like 5 men or a Hero with a +1 to hit (the rules where a bit clumsy back then). Also a simple, little +1 bonuse went a long ways back then because you rolled 2d6 instead of a d20 to hit (yes, it was a vary different game back then - it also noted that you can play the game with 4 to 50 players per referee (DM), but suggests to keep it around 20 per :shock: :?).
I hoped you all enjoyed this history lesson? Are next lesson is going to be the history of the Flumph, and this is going count for 50% of your grade!
At the time, the notion of using Strength to adjust to-hit was based on how the old Chainmail to-hit system was more about "weapon-type vs. armor-type" rolls, then the "PC Class & Level vs. Armor Class" method familiar to most D&D players. So the first method would need Str to adjust the to-hit, because high strength can penetrate armor better. It may seem odd how class & level was not the base for hitting. Your class & level made you powerful in terms of man-power, so a Hero (level 4 Fighting-man) literally fight like 4 men in one, and a Swashbuckler (level 5) was treated like 5 men or a Hero with a +1 to hit (the rules where a bit clumsy back then). Also a simple, little +1 bonuse went a long ways back then because you rolled 2d6 instead of a d20 to hit (yes, it was a vary different game back then - it also noted that you can play the game with 4 to 50 players per referee (DM), but suggests to keep it around 20 per :shock: :?).
I hoped you all enjoyed this history lesson? Are next lesson is going to be the history of the Flumph, and this is going count for 50% of your grade!
Supplement Four
Mongoose
afro-slav said:
It's simple.
The attack throw in a d20 game is an abstract method for detailing a hit and damage. The attack throw just doesn't mean, "Did I hit the target?" It also means, "Did I hit and damage the target?"
That attack throw is a to-hit-and-damage throw...not just a to-hit throw.
Theoretically a failed attack throw doesn't necessarily mean the target wasn't hit. It just means it wasn't hit with enough force to also do damage.
Any hits that slide off the shield or buck off of armor that do no damage can still be considered hits in the literal sense but are misses in the d20 mechanical sense.
kintire said:
How do you figure?
There are a ton of variables that can modify the numbers and I don't have the interest to worry about damage variance which would push numbers higher, but I have a 14s/18d, 7 BAB, War Sworder doing on average 1.14 points of damage and a 18s/14d, 7 BAB, Bardicher doing on average 4.56 points of damage against a DV 20, 10 DR opponent. Switch the finesse fighter to a bardiche and it's obvious that the Str dude is better. Power Attack isn't going to help the finesser much as anything more than -1 means that even a 20 no longer finesses where the meleer has a massive incentive to PA for -7.
I'm curious as to what counterexample there might be as I could see it easily getting worse for the finesser. For instance, a 20s with a bardiche armor pierces DR 10 which not just jumps average damage way up, which doesn't matter much but brings in a lot of other numbers into the massive damage range.
Sutek
Mongoose
Yes. Combat is an abstraction, and physical/melee combat is based on the brute prowess of the individual. Using STR therefore allows a single stat to be involved for both the "hit" determination as well as for the damage generated afterward. It's a simplification, to be sure. In other words, STR unifies physical combat capability under one stat that makes sense for both the swing and the impact at once. It could have been DEX to hit with, but they made a Feat so that can be done and made STR the norm for melee. It could even be CON for hitting (as a measure of one's stamina in combat) and STR for damage, but that splits the source up. Using just STR makes it simpler.
I think that projectiles (thrown or shot) should be able to add DEX bonus to damage to simulate accuracy, but I haven't play tested it to be sure it works well.
I think that projectiles (thrown or shot) should be able to add DEX bonus to damage to simulate accuracy, but I haven't play tested it to be sure it works well.
Krushnak said:
IF is certainly helpful, but what two feats do you give the strength fighter in compensation for the two required of IF?
I suppose you can get IF without feats through the Fencing skills, but that means getting up to 22 reliably in that skill while jacking Bluff to high heaven to make the feint work on 2 or 4 skill ranks per level while needing to use more Power Attack and/or Reckless Attack than the Str fighter to do enough damage to force a MDS.
I'm really not clear on why 5 less damage is considered that big a deal. An 18s, bardicher needs to PA for -5 to average 26 damage. The 14s, war sworder, needs to PA for -6 to average 21.5 damage while going through the rigmarole of feinting successfully, nevermind that the finesser will still not finesse with every hit. Put the DR back to 10 for the meleer, and the numbers shift again, but I find it hard to believe that it makes such a difference that the Str fighter is inferior given that it won't need to have IF, won't need to make the roll, won't need to roll as high, won't need to use a move action, won't be as screwed by grapples, and whatnot.
And, all of this just assumes that every fight is against someone running around in plate. I'm willing to try to show that even in this case it doesn't matter because I made a rather strong statement, a statement I continue to believe as every bit of evidence of 4 years of playing with this system has suggested it, but we shouldn't lose sight of how so much better the Str fighter is when you don't make this assumption.
