Why limit the number of boon/bane dice?

[TrippyHippy]

During the course of the playtest, the boon/bane dice mechanic has naturally come in for some scrutiny and criticism. One thing raised about it is the all-or-nothing aspect - that you can't have any escalation or granularity by adding just one dice.

The advantage of boon/bane, statistically speaking is that, while it weights the outcome positively or negatively, it doesn't change the range. As such, why should it matter how many boon/bane dice are added if all they do is increasingly weight the dice rolling positively or negatively, without changing the range?

If you roll 5 dice and take the best 2, you will likely get a very good roll - but it still won't be over a 12 threshold. Why would this be a problem?

 

[Stainless]

This is how Barbarians of Lemuria and its derivatives use the bonus/penalty dice.

 

[-Daniel-]

Not saying it is right or wrong, but isn't the limit to keep the number of dice down?

Character try's something that receives three boon dice and four bane dice. So player rolls nine dice, takes four high dice away, three low dice away and the remaining two are his "roll". It is not that it couldn't work, I think what I read was the desire to keep the number of dice we needed to roll at one time low.

 

[allanimal]

Not saying it is right or wrong, but isn't the limit to keep the number of dice down?

Character try's something that receives three boon dice and four bane dice. So player rolls nine dice, takes four high dice away, three low dice away and the remaining two are his "roll". It is not that it couldn't work, I think what I read was the desire to keep the number of dice we needed to roll at one time low.

I would still think boon cancels bane and vice versa, ending up with one bane total in that example.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Not saying it is right or wrong, but isn't the limit to keep the number of dice down?

Character try's something that receives three boon dice and four bane dice. So player rolls nine dice, takes four high dice away, three low dice away and the remaining two are his "roll". It is not that it couldn't work, I think what I read was the desire to keep the number of dice we needed to roll at one time low.

Is there a major drought of dice at most gaming tables?

I accept that it could get to silly levels, and de-emphasise the basic target system we currently have, but all I'm saying really is why have an artificial limit if statistically it isn't really that problematic. To my mind, a boon/bane dice is equivalent to a +2 bonus (without effecting range). If there are multiple factors that are detrimental or conducive to the aim of the Task, then why can't additional dice be rolled?

 

[Wizard]

I can't see any reason not to have a stackable boon/bane dice mechanic. Lets take an extreme example and say you have 2 boons and 5 banes. The 2 boons cancel 2 of the banes leaving 3 bane. This results in rolling 5 dice taking the 2 lowest. Quick and simple.

Plus I believe it adds to the fun of the game 'Hey dude, you have double bane, good luck trying to jump that pit in the rain with your hands tied behind your back!'. By the rules the character would only have 1 bane dice, giving them no game reason to untie their hands first. With stackable boon/bane they do have a reason.

 

[-Daniel-]

As I said above, I don't know either way is good or bad. I would be curious as to the impact to the curve adding a second and third die would have. We know just one bane or boon shift the curve quite a bit. At what number of bane or boon dice does the curve insure a 12 or 2?

On a side note, I am still not sure how I feel about this method being added to the game. I have seen some areas where the boon/bane seems to be quite useful, other areas I am less sold on it's value. :|

 

[allanimal]

As I said above, I don't know either way is good or bad. I would be curious as to the impact to the curve adding a second and third die would have. We know just one bane or boon shift the curve quite a bit. At what number of bane or boon dice does the curve insure a 12 or 2?

Over at http://anydice.com/program/6b96 I ran it with up to 5 boon/bane dice.
At 5 boon dice, 33% of the time you will get a 12.
anydice.com can probably find how many dice it takes to push that to 99.999%... It's got a lot of capability...

Edit:
At 15 boon dice, there is a 99.99% chance of rolling 8+ And 80.17% chance of rolling a 12.
At 30 boon dice, there is a 97.84% chance of rolling a 12.
At 40 boon dice, I seem to have broken anydice.com... :shock:

 

[-Daniel-]

Over at http://anydice.com/program/6b96 I ran it with up to 5 boon/bane dice.
At 5 boon dice, 33% of the time you will get a 12.
anydice.com can probably find how many dice it takes to push that to 99.999%... It's got a lot of capability...

Edit:
At 15 boon dice, there is a 99.99% chance of rolling 8+ And 80.17% chance of rolling a 12.
At 30 boon dice, there is a 97.84% chance of rolling a 12.

Thanks, that is interesting to know.

At 40 boon dice, I seem to have broken anydice.com... :shock:

LOL :mrgreen:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

During the course of the playtest, the boon/bane dice mechanic has naturally come in for some scrutiny and criticism. One thing raised about it is the all-or-nothing aspect - that you can't have any escalation or granularity by adding just one dice.

The advantage of boon/bane, statistically speaking is that, while it weights the outcome positively or negatively, it doesn't change the range. As such, why should it matter how many boon/bane dice are added if all they do is increasingly weight the dice rolling positively or negatively, without changing the range?

If you roll 5 dice and take the best 2, you will likely get a very good roll - but it still won't be over a 12 threshold. Why would this be a problem?

Like anything, Bone/Bane is great to have in moderation. Too much of it and players are basically 2 and 12-ing. Now you are messing with where Effect wants to be in any situation.

Also, why not just mess with Difficulty instead? Very Easy, Super Easy, Incredibly Easy? Less rigma roll for the dice.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Why not have the option to mess with either and leave it up to each respective Referee?

All I'm saying is that if one of the main criticisms of bane/boon is a lack of granularity - well it can be done, and at no great cost to the game mechanics in effect.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Why not have the option to mess with either and leave it up to each respective Referee?

All I'm saying is that if one of the main criticisms of bane/boon is a lack of granularity - well it can be done, and at no great cost to the game mechanics in effect.

Making a video right now that shows what a 5D (keep 2 highest dice) looks like. It's not pretty.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Somebody has already done the stats on it above - you have a 33% chance of rolling a 12. So why is this a problem?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Somebody has already done the stats on it above - you have a 33% chance of rolling a 12. So why is this a problem?

The more dice you throw at the Boon problem, the smaller your range is. It's no longer 2 to 12. More like 6 to 12, if you're lucky. I'm curious what multi-booning looks like when a player narrates what their character is doing to earn so many.

Anyway, multi-Boon/Bane is a different mechanic for some other kind of RPG. Maybe Traveller 6.

 

[FallingPhoenix]

After reading the "first evening of playtesting" thread nearby, I'm more and more in favor of being able to apply multiple boon/bane dice and sum them up before rolling. It seems like most times you'd only have maybe 1 or 2 things affecting the situation, but if a player was having a particularly eloquent evening and managed to describe an attempt with excessive flair, multiple dice would be a very tangible 'reward' for that description.

Or, I suppose, things could be re-worded in the book so as to leave open the possibility for more modifiers...

 

[TrippyHippy]

Somebody has already done the stats on it above - you have a 33% chance of rolling a 12. So why is this a problem?

The more dice you throw at the Boon problem, the smaller your range is. It's no longer 2 to 12. More like 6 to 12, if you're lucky. I'm curious what multi-booning looks like when a player narrates what their character is doing to earn so many.

Anyway, multi-Boon/Bane is a different mechanic for some other kind of RPG. Maybe Traveller 6.

It's in playtest Shawn, so anything is possible. That's not a reasoned argument.

Again, I don't see what the problem is with having multi 'boon/bane dice heavily weighting the outcome of a Task roll. That's what they are intended for. The range is still 2-12 because there is always a possibility of rolling all 1s (just not a probability). Moreover, 5 dice either way is an extreme case. I wouldn't possibly imagine rolling more than 3 myself, but having more counters the issue of a lack of granularity which a few other people have highlighted as a criticism.

As I said, bane/boon dice do not affect the range - they just weight the rolling.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Somebody has already done the stats on it above - you have a 33% chance of rolling a 12. So why is this a problem?

The more dice you throw at the Boon problem, the smaller your range is. It's no longer 2 to 12. More like 6 to 12, if you're lucky. I'm curious what multi-booning looks like when a player narrates what their character is doing to earn so many.

Anyway, multi-Boon/Bane is a different mechanic for some other kind of RPG. Maybe Traveller 6.

It's in playtest Shawn, so anything is possible. That's not a reasoned argument.

Again, I don't see what the problem is with having multi 'boon/bane dice heavily weighting the outcome of a Task roll. That's what they are intended for. The range is still 2-12 because there is always a possibility of rolling all 1s (just not a probability). Moreover, 5 dice either way is an extreme case. I wouldn't possibly imagine rolling more than 3 myself, but having more counters the issue of a lack of granularity which a few other people have highlighted as a criticism.

As I said, bane/boon dice do not affect the range - they just weight the rolling.

When the roll range is narrowed, the question then is why roll? The referee just says what the Effect is without needing a roll.

There's nothing granular about your idea. Just askewed bell curves is all. Use +/- DMs for granularity.

 

[-Daniel-]

Again, I don't see what the problem is with having multi 'boon/bane dice heavily weighting the outcome of a Task roll. That's what they are intended for. The range is still 2-12 because there is always a possibility of rolling all 1s (just not a probability). Moreover, 5 dice either way is an extreme case. I wouldn't possibly imagine rolling more than 3 myself, but having more counters the issue of a lack of granularity which a few other people have highlighted as a criticism.

As I said, bane/boon dice do not affect the range - they just weight the rolling.

While I am personally still trying to decide if I even like the mechanic at all, I am not against 1 or more dice either way. But having played Shadowrun for example, I can say "fist full of dice" is not where I would want to see this game go. I would hope you are right that having more than one boon or bane would remain the rare case.

I also would not look forward to those few players who would feel the need to argue with every bane and want to argue for boon after boon like I have to deal with in D&D now. That is one advantage of one and done is that once they have been given a boon, we are done with the conversation. They can't keep looking for more and more silly reasons to ask for another boon.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

While I am personally still trying to decide if I even like the mechanic at all, I am not against 1 or more dice either way. But having played Shadowrun for example, I can say "fist full of dice" is not where I would want to see this game go. I would hope you are right that having more than one boon or bane would remain the rare case.

To me, dice pools end up being "counting successes" game sessions. I don't think Traveller needs a dice pool mechanic on top of its existing one. This alternate Boon/Bane suggestion is more about game design rather than playtesting.

 

[-Daniel-]

While I am personally still trying to decide if I even like the mechanic at all, I am not against 1 or more dice either way. But having played Shadowrun for example, I can say "fist full of dice" is not where I would want to see this game go. I would hope you are right that having more than one boon or bane would remain the rare case.

To me, dice pools end up being "counting successes" game sessions. I don't think Traveller needs a dice pool mechanic on top of its existing one. This alternate Boon/Bane suggestion is more about game design rather than playtesting.

Shawn, you might want to reread what I wrote. I am in no way suggesting a dice pool mechanic nor do I want one. I am suggesting that if players are allowed to they will find ways to argue for lots of boons or a GM who is being extra mean could assign lots of banes. Rolling a fist full of dice for every test is what I would like to avoid.