I see lots and lots of beam posts right now. I don't understand what's the problem. I'm lazy, tell me why everyone's upset. I think they work fine. My only suggestion would be more dice on some ships and/or possibly degrading it to 3+ on first shot 4+ on all subsequent rolls. Nevertheless, I don't think they're broken right now.
Why are beams a problem?
- Thread starter animus
- Start date
reyamc2001
Mongoose
I also don't have a problem with them right now. I think what most people are upset about is that they are too random right now. They'd like to see something where you reduce the times when you get no hits or massive hits.
chainmailler
Mongoose
Well look at the show the minbari beams rutinely slice through ships in one go, so they are designed to be powerful, but there are ways to counter them.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
My issue isn't with the balance, it's just that they put way too much luck into the game for my tastes. And while I can play without them if I like, I can't force my opponent to do the same, and that still has the tendency to reduce the game to a dice-rolling contest instead of a game that is won and lost by tactics and skill.
GhostRecon
Mongoose
I am with CZuschlag.
Nowhere in the show, as a canon example, do you see a Minbari shout "Oh Valen I hope our beams don't wiff!" Beams seem to do a pretty consistent amount of damage. The more powerful the beam, the more hurt goes into the target.
Yet, routinely, things are pretty random with Beams in 2E.
I've had a Marathon cut in half in a single turn by a Thentus, while another Marathon in the same game completely failed to do a thing for the 6 turns it survived.
Nowhere in the show, as a canon example, do you see a Minbari shout "Oh Valen I hope our beams don't wiff!" Beams seem to do a pretty consistent amount of damage. The more powerful the beam, the more hurt goes into the target.
Yet, routinely, things are pretty random with Beams in 2E.
I've had a Marathon cut in half in a single turn by a Thentus, while another Marathon in the same game completely failed to do a thing for the 6 turns it survived.
GhostRecon
Mongoose
Such as?
The only occurrences of beam fire misses I remember in the series were things external to the beam itself, such as beams missing Whitestars (Dodge).
The only occurrences of beam fire misses I remember in the series were things external to the beam itself, such as beams missing Whitestars (Dodge).
Funny I didn't see a little "Dodge" token above the whitestar in the show...
and lets face it.. any weapon would only ever miss in the show because it was *written* that way, the battles are not based on any system.
Anyway, there are enough "let's fix the broken beams" threads out there right now.
Suffice to say, not everyone thinks beams are broken, and now animus know s what people feel the problem is.
Most of the proposed "solutions" (to the non-existant problem) are so complex they invalidate themselves as solutions. I don't think Mongoose is going to retool all beams and ships anytime soon if ever. There wasn't that much of a change from 1ed to 2ed.
j.,
and lets face it.. any weapon would only ever miss in the show because it was *written* that way, the battles are not based on any system.
Anyway, there are enough "let's fix the broken beams" threads out there right now.
Suffice to say, not everyone thinks beams are broken, and now animus know s what people feel the problem is.
Most of the proposed "solutions" (to the non-existant problem) are so complex they invalidate themselves as solutions. I don't think Mongoose is going to retool all beams and ships anytime soon if ever. There wasn't that much of a change from 1ed to 2ed.
j.,
dag'karlove
Mongoose
I dont see the beam rules a problem. I see it as peoples bad dice.
Ripple said:
A) Relative to the kinds of changes people are discussing now, the change in the rule was very simple.
B) Beams went from hitting on (Hull), then (Hull+1 if hull < 6), 6, 6, 6, 6, ... to hitting on 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, ...
The effect may be huge, but as a rule it all that changed was the to-hit number.
j.,
You obviously haven't been reading the beam thread. The proposed change is, roll 1D6 for each AD of the beam. 1-3 = miss, 4 = 1 hit, 5 = 2 hits, 6 = 3 hits. Or variations on that. How is that complicated? In fact in terms of dice rolling it would be simple, and speed the game up...Bostich said:
I think beams are ok as they stand, even though i miss quite a lot.
I also think its funny that in all the beam threads people are complaining that beams are too random.....HELLO, its a game system based on DICE rolling, how can it not be random.
Unless your beam dice are all loaded :wink: (cough!,Star_Lynx!,cough! :twisted: )
I also think its funny that in all the beam threads people are complaining that beams are too random.....HELLO, its a game system based on DICE rolling, how can it not be random.
Unless your beam dice are all loaded :wink: (cough!,Star_Lynx!,cough! :twisted: )
The problem is not that it is random. Like you say, it is a dice game, of course it will be random. The problem is that it is too random. Sometimes it feels like you might as well just roll a D6 at the start of the game, 1-3 I win, 4-6 you win, saved yourself 2 hours. Strategy and tactics are blown apart by poor rolling or opponent's good rolling too often. Not to say it shouldn't ever happen - with a dice game it will always happen sometimes - but it shouldn't happen as often as it does. This is a wargame, you're supposed to use tactics, manouver and strategy. Not just throw dice and see who rolls highest.Funbeast said:
cthol24601
Mongoose
What about doing it like the Eldar in BFG and simply limiting the number of hits a beam can do with a higher or lower limit depending on whether its single, double or triple damage etc. That way too you could still use the old Ap and super ap for them like the heady days of 1st ed (which i actually quite liked re beam rules)
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Well were basically recovering the same ground now but the problem most folks have is not that beams are random or influenced by luck its that they are TOO random and that said random result has too big an influence on the game as a whole. Luck in a wargame is good, thats life. In real warfare luck certainly plays a roll but with beams it often feels like the whole game is pretty much decided by whether the first big beam salvo rolls well or whiffs irrespective of how you play. And thats peoples issue.
I wont go into proposed solutions as quite frankly between the various people discussing it in the other thread I think we came up with 3 or 4 variations that were no more complex than the current rules (in fact more simple in most cases) that both keep the mean avearage damage more or less the same as current and still give the CHANCE for a total whiff or a massive hit but just make it so those are freak occurences rather than cropping up as often as more average results! In fact I've just had another idea but will put it on the other thread....
I wont go into proposed solutions as quite frankly between the various people discussing it in the other thread I think we came up with 3 or 4 variations that were no more complex than the current rules (in fact more simple in most cases) that both keep the mean avearage damage more or less the same as current and still give the CHANCE for a total whiff or a massive hit but just make it so those are freak occurences rather than cropping up as often as more average results! In fact I've just had another idea but will put it on the other thread....
So to sum it up...
1. No-one seems to think beams are broken, or unfair.
2. Some people are of the opinion that they are too random (i.e. they either do nothing or too much so that strategy becomes much less important than luck.)
3. Some people think the randomness (or luck factor) is about right and have no problems with the way beams work. They like the mechanic and the results it produces.
4. People who believe in (2) are discussing ways of tweaking the beam rules to make them less random, something that not every player thinks is a problem.
Personally I don't have a problem with Beam rules, I think they are just fine given the randomness of the game (critical, stealth and dodge come to mind). If beams *consistently* did a certain amount of damage I think they would lose their flavour and appeal...(woo chain those hits!). Also, Shadow pinning would occur far more frequently...not something I would favour!
1. No-one seems to think beams are broken, or unfair.
2. Some people are of the opinion that they are too random (i.e. they either do nothing or too much so that strategy becomes much less important than luck.)
3. Some people think the randomness (or luck factor) is about right and have no problems with the way beams work. They like the mechanic and the results it produces.
4. People who believe in (2) are discussing ways of tweaking the beam rules to make them less random, something that not every player thinks is a problem.
Personally I don't have a problem with Beam rules, I think they are just fine given the randomness of the game (critical, stealth and dodge come to mind). If beams *consistently* did a certain amount of damage I think they would lose their flavour and appeal...(woo chain those hits!). Also, Shadow pinning would occur far more frequently...not something I would favour!
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