What's new in Deluxe?

[Hyborian]

I spent hours trying to show to my old group that the different number of CAs depending on DEX was in fact not a problem because you only spent a reaction when your [higher DEX] opponent connected. All gone with the update. With pre-declaration of defenses, master swordsman vs. three trollkin = dead master, as he is likely to use his reactions against the blows that miss. Another regression.

I think there are some ways to fix that. For example, you could say that if the defender's Dodge/Parry succeds whereas the attacker's roll fails, the defender keeps his Reaction. This way, a highly skilled defender could use more Reactions against low-skilled ennemies. Of course, this system only really works if you don't use opposed rolls (although there is probably a way to use it with the updated rules).

EDIT : With the updated rules, you would just have to say that the defender keeps his Reaction if his dodge/parry is a success and the attack is a failure BEFORE degrading the result. If the atacks succeeds but is degraded to a failure (or a critical degraded to a success), then the defender uses his Reaction.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I think there are some ways to fix that. For example, you could say that if the defender's Dodge/Parry succeds whereas the attacker's roll fails, the defender keeps his Reaction. This way, a highly skilled defender could use more Reactions against low-skilled ennemies. Of course, this system only really works if you don't use opposed rolls (although there is probably a way to use it with the updated rules).

I like that! very cinematic - although it might prove more problematic at low levels it does allow a master to take on a squad of mooks without beign automatically overwhelmed, but still with a chance of numbers being able to tell...

 

[Loz]

I think there are some ways to fix that. For example, you could say that if the defender's Dodge/Parry succeds whereas the attacker's roll fails, the defender keeps his Reaction. This way, a highly skilled defender could use more Reactions against low-skilled ennemies. Of course, this system only really works if you don't use opposed rolls (although there is probably a way to use it with the updated rules).

I like that! very cinematic - although it might prove more problematic at low levels it does allow a master to take on a squad of mooks without beign automatically overwhelmed, but still with a chance of numbers being able to tell...

I like that too.

 

[DigitalMage]

Another alternative would be to get rid of a limit to the number of Reactions and state that a character can always attempt to dodge or parry but that they suffer a -10% penalty for every extra foe they are facing.

E.g. Master Samurai has 2 Handed Sword skill at 80% and is facing 3 opponents who have skills of 50% each. When attacking, the Samurai uses a score of 80% and the foes parry with a skill of 50%. However when each of the foes attack they still use 50% but the samurai parries with a reduced skill of 60% (80% - 20% for 2 extra opponents).

The Samurai still outmatches his opponents but they have a better chance of landing a blow on him, than if they were facing him one on one.

This of course also has the added benefit that you don't need to keep track of the number of Reactions you have used.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Errr, I think he was referring to the original edition of MRQ rather than RQ3...

Yeah, but his argument sort of holds for that too. RQ3 wasn't broken, but got "fixed".

Mongoose had to make MRQ different because the old RQ rules are copyrighted to Chaoisum, so something that was not broken had to be "fixed". Total Hit Points were not broken, but they disappeared. Decimal values for ENC were not broken. Special sucesses were not broken.

OTOH, fatigue was broken. Permanent POW loss for 1-use Divine Magic was broken. Resisting spells with MP or POW was broken. All these were fixed in a way I like, although things can be improved.

But, Rosen's opinion that MRQ combat wasn't broken, and that the new "shields are useless" update isn't broken either doesn't seem to be true.

Never stated the update is ok. I still think it was a step in the wrong direction, not in the right one.

Basically, this is boiling down to what is more important to Rosen. All fine and dandy, except anyone else (say, oh, Rurik), can and will have a different set of priorities, and they are just a valid as Rosen's, and they have just as much a right to squawk about what they want.

No one is saying "learn to live with the runes as they are, Rosen".

That is exactly why I stated "Get over it". I share 80% of Rurik's disappointments with the rules, but 50% or so of other players like the points we dislike, so I think there will be no fixes for these points.

 

[RosenMcStern]

I think there are some ways to fix that. For example, you could say that if the defender's Dodge/Parry succeds whereas the attacker's roll fails, the defender keeps his Reaction. This way, a highly skilled defender could use more Reactions against low-skilled ennemies. Of course, this system only really works if you don't use opposed rolls (although there is probably a way to use it with the updated rules).

I like that! very cinematic - although it might prove more problematic at low levels it does allow a master to take on a squad of mooks without beign automatically overwhelmed, but still with a chance of numbers being able to tell...

I like that too.

I am very glad that everyone agrees this is a good solution.

But how is it that when I first suggested it, shortly after the update was out, I only got a "too complicate" reply? :?

Incidentally, I have also reworked the tables to include this option. There is also a graphically improved version, elaborated by Halfbat.

 

[Hyborian]

But how is it that when I first suggested it, shortly after the update was out, I only got a "too complicate" reply?

Probably because your rules are different from those I've suggested.

Mine use the combat matrix as is except for the Reaction that the defender spares if he succeeds whereas the attack is a "natural" failure (before being demoted because of the higer dodge/parry). Hence there is not "partial success" in this system.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I am very glad that everyone agrees this is a good solution.

But how is it that when I first suggested it, shortly after the update was out, I only got a "too complicate" reply? :?

Maybe because this version takes 4 lines and the message you link to is more than a screenful? :wink:

 

[gamesmeister]

But how is it that when I first suggested it, shortly after the update was out, I only got a "too complicate" reply? :?

I still can't get my head around your post, even now I've gone back and re-read it :?

Hyborian's is a tad simpler...

 

[RosenMcStern]

Simply because he has not yet explored all cases that may arise.

I belong to the generation that uses the adequate number of lines to describe a rule rather than using the minimal amount of explanations and realizing later that there are several pages of special cases that they have not taken into account: missiles, opposed rolls, etc

 

[Rurik]

I see pre-declaring reactions a matter of preference that can be used or not used depending on taste, it is easy to switch between the methods without affecting anything else in the game. I think not declaring actions before the roll fits a more swashbuckling game (Captain Blood/3 Musketeers type) while making players pre-declare reactions suitable for a grittier game.

I will say this: not declaring reactions ahead of times flows smoother in my experience. It is not a big hangup at the table, but I am considereing starting a PBP game (and may try to start one here if there is interest, though past attempts by others seem to have petered out), and I will definately NOT use pre-declaring actions for PBP (or PBEM). Cases below:

Pre-declared Reactions:

Trollkin: "I attack Rurik"

(wait for Rurik to post)

Rurik: "I decide not to parry"

(Wait for Trollkin to Post)

Trollkin: Rolls 89 "I miss"

(Wait for Rurik to Post)

Rurik: I attack the trollkin

(wait for trollkin to post, and so on...)

Not Pre-declaring Reactions:

Trollkin: "I attack Rurik and roll an 89, a miss."

Rurik: "I attack the Trollkin and roll an 00, a fumble. Did I mention I hate fighting trollkin?"

Big difference there in how smoothly combat runs. Everyone can take their action when their turn comes and not have to wait for input from their target first.

 

[atgxtg]

Errr, I think he was referring to the original edition of MRQ rather than RQ3...

Yeah, but his argument sort of holds for that too. RQ3 wasn't broken, but got "fixed".

Mongoose had to make MRQ different because the old RQ rules are copyrighted to Chaoisum, so something that was not broken had to be "fixed". Total Hit Points were not broken, but they disappeared. Decimal values for ENC were not broken. Special successes were not broken.

No, they didn't. That topic came up here over a year ago, and Mongoose pointed out that you cannot actually copyright a rule system. You CAN copywrite a setting and certain game terms, but game mechancis are fair game. Folks from Mongoose did state that they could have pretty much copied over RQ2 or 3 verbatim with no problem. Especially since, despite rumors to the contrary, there is no D100 or BRP system, as such. The system was RQ, and everything else was based or derived from that.

OTOH, fatigue was broken. Permanent POW loss for 1-use Divine Magic was broken. Resisting spells with MP or POW was broken. All these were fixed in a way I like, although things can be improved.

-Fatigue wasn't broken, it worked. Most people didn't like keeping track of it, but it worked.

-Permanent POW loss for one use Divine Magic wasn't broken either. It was the price one paid for not being a priest. It was quite worth it, as the benfits of the divine magic more than made up for the POW loss, especially since POW was the easiest stat to raise. Plus, since worshipers got a free free points of POW anyway, it was usually a freebie.
As anyone who had a character benefit from someone's one use Shield, Beserk, or other Divine Magic, it worked.

-Resisting Spells with MP or POW was not broken at all. Worked fine. Certainly works much better than the "saving throw" system. Just keep raising your Persistence skill.


You may not have liked the way things were done in RQ2 or RQ3, but that doesn't mean they were "broken". That word gets thrown around a lot, and is usually incorrect. Just becasue someone doesn't like a rule doesn't make it broken". It is when something doesn't function that a rule is broken. I hate CA's, XP based progression, the new weapon APs, and a lot of other things, but that doesn't make them "broken". A Disrupt spell that does 1d3 in a system where the HP have gone up and totoal HP have vanished ISN'T broken. Almost useless, but not broken.

Now having results on a combat matrix that NEVER came up, that's BROKEN. A few of the MRQ rules in how they relate to Glroantha ARE broken, at least if you want to run in a Gloranthan campaign where Olanthi aren't being hunted down by Uroxi. But then, thanks to the overall changes you won't be ale to get Glorantha out of the MRQ rules without changes anyway. With reusable divine magic, and "rune magic" requiring runes, Divine Magic will be much more common and Spirit magic much less common. Spell tactics have completely changed (for instance, not much point in a mass disrupt anymore.)

That is exactly why I stated "Get over it". I share 80% of Rurik's disappointments with the rules, but 50% or so of other players like the points we dislike, so I think there will be no fixes for these points.

Well, as Mongoose pointed out over a year ago, 80% on the people who buy an RPG don't play it. So technically, as long as the books are selling there is no reason to change anything in any product no matter what state it is in. There is no money in rule fixes and upgrades. As long as the books keep selling.

Even if everyone on the forums all hated the same thing and wanted it changed (like that would ever happen, the closest we came to that was the original character sheet), we are only a fraction of a fraction. Probably less than 5% of the people who bought MRQ.

But, as the update has proven, it is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. A year ago, most people were just fine with the combat rules from the book (until they tired playing the game, then it because houserule city). The fact that weapon parries were pretty pointless (it didn't stop much, and had a better chance of making a bad situation worse).

It is because people didn't "get over it" that we got updates. Poorly worked out hacks, but updates nonetheless. The exception being Pete Nash's combat rules, which at the very least are well worked out. They appear to address a LOT of the weakness of MRQ. His rules actually look like something someone spent time over.

It is also because we didn't "get over it" that we got some sort of clarification as to how to play the game. The majority of MRQ players wouldn't even know how to play the game, since they would probably have done stuff like listen to the guys running the game at the conventions and read the examples in the rulebook, both "no-nos" according to the folks at Mongoose.


But if we all just "got over it" and went with the majority, we'd all be playing D&D, like the majority of RPGers.

 

[zozotroll]

No forum has a large percentage of people that play the game on it. But, often, the ones who are there are among the most interested in the game.

I have found 2 where playersactualy discuss things, and people from the company stop by read, and seem to listen to what is being said. Those two are here, and rthe Steve Jacson forums, specificly Traveller.

Getting over saomething happens when the company tells you that something is not going to change so live with it. I have not heard that happen here.

Hopefully, it never will.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Mongoose had to make MRQ different because the old RQ rules are copyrighted to Chaoisum

No, they didn't. That topic came up here over a year ago, and Mongoose pointed out that you cannot actually copyright a rule system.

That is what they stated. But there is more than law in the domain of IP. Charlie Krank cannot sue Issaries or Mongoose if they just quote RQ2 or RQ3. And he never would. But MRQ and BRP must be different, yet sibling, game systems.

Because the two (three?) companies respect each other.

It's called fair competition. And it appears that the RPG industry is the last branch where this word still has a meaning

-Fatigue wasn't broken, it worked. Most people didn't like keeping track of it, but it worked.

Absolutely true. I loved the RQ3-like fatigue system in Morrowind. This system is perfect for computer based games.

But in pen & paper games it turns FUN into BOREDOM. Which means it is BROKEN. A mathematically perfect, yet boring, system, in a domain that is about FUN, is BROKEN.

Now having results on a combat matrix that NEVER came up, that's BROKEN.

Agreed. Why didn't you use that many capitals when I posted three threads about the player's update in June?

A few of the MRQ rules in how they relate to Glroantha ARE broken, at least if you want to run in a Gloranthan campaign where Olanthi aren't being hunted down by Uroxi.

AGREED. Why didh't you post that many capitals when I stated "the real problems are runes in Glorantha" just two days ago? [note: I still think you can have a fun game in Glorantha using Rune Magic, with some fixes]

But then, thanks to the overall changes you won't be ale to get Glorantha out of the MRQ rules without changes anyway. With reusable divine magic, and "rune magic" requiring runes, Divine Magic will be much more common and Spirit magic much less common. Spell tactics have completely changed (for instance, not much point in a mass disrupt anymore.)

Which I see as an improvement. It feels less RQ3 and more Glorantha.

 

[frogspawner]

One of those problems was scalability. When your characters got past the 90% mark there was no longer any real point in playing, it just got silly. The mechanics just could not handle games that involved incredibly talented individuals.

That's a common misconception about RQ2/3, but those systems actually work pretty well in practice at high levels. We've run campaigns with characters with very high skills (200%+ for one) and RQ works just fine. It is scaled to normal people, so there are dimishing returns, but the characters are still fun and easily challenged.

I'd disagree on SB being an improvement on RQ too. SB is a great game, but it's more correct IMO to call it a simplification of RQ, not an overall improvement. I like both.

Thanks for that, RMS. I think RQ2/3 are pretty much the best rules, but I've not played at such high levels or seen the Stormbringer variation. So it's good to hear the frequently-made "RQ doesn't scale" and "SB is better" assertions refuted by someone who knows.
And for anyone who's got beyond even the 200% mark, you really should be moving on to HeroQuesting. No, I don't mean with Greg's HeroWars/HeroQuest - but try soltakss's HeroQuesting rules...

 

[RMS]

Thanks for that, RMS. I think RQ2/3 are pretty much the best rules, but I've not played at such high levels or seen the Stormbringer variation. So it's good to hear the frequently-made "RQ doesn't scale" and "SB is better" assertions refuted by someone who knows.
And for anyone who's got beyond even the 200% mark, you really should be moving on to HeroQuesting. No, I don't mean with Greg's HeroWars/HeroQuest - but try soltakss's HeroQuesting rules...

I've never used those rules, but I did write my own heroquesting rules a long time ago that I've used for those very powerful characters. (I later stole some terminology, and did some refinements, based on the ToRM Heroquesting issue.) I gave characters a Willpower stat that's literally a measure of their self determination. The stat actually decreases as characters gain masteries in skills, certain levels of divine magic, and complete certain heroquests. It's actually funny to watch my players at the table wanting to not get improvement rolls because their character's Willpower is dwindling away. When it hits 0 they apothesize: they've become too much like their god to have any self determination. They can also gain Willpower through doing things out-of-character for their god. It's all a way of balancing out total power gains with a cost for those gains, but also fits Glorantha extremely well. If they want to change a myth it requires an expenditure of Willpower, so it's a very fine balance to have enough personal power to succeed at such a heroquest and yet have enough self determination to actually break the mold rather than do exactly what their god did in myth. It's a fun, and relatively simple system.

 

[AKAramis]

The QLI forums at TravellerRPG.com/TravellerRPG.net have two way feedback in the paid area for T20 and 2320... the two "product lines" that QLI has going. (T20 is going to morph out of it's "T".... but then, perhaps we'll see 2320 integrated to the new core ... )

The guys over at Troll Lord seem to listen to their player base as well, and the Folks at Fiery Dragon used to (but then ditched the forums)...

MANY game companies listen, cautiously, to their fans.

I would still like to have an updated version of the core MRQ; I paid for a system, and it's broken (due to the combat tables). The Update neither fixes the pages nor truly solves the issue.

GDW, when I sent off for the eratta for FF&S, sent me a replacement page to paste in....

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

-Fatigue wasn't broken, it worked. Most people didn't like keeping track of it, but it worked.

Absolutely true. I loved the RQ3-like fatigue system in Morrowind. This system is perfect for computer based games.

But in pen & paper games it turns FUN into BOREDOM. Which means it is BROKEN. A mathematically perfect, yet boring, system, in a domain that is about FUN, is BROKEN.

I wouldn't have called it broken. Broken is something that can't be relied on to give consistent results, like the halving mechanic. Fatigue was deeply flawed, however, in that it required an extra layer of bookkeeping, as well as slowing the pace of the game down by requiring extra calculations. It would have worked fine if everything had still been in 5% increments, however.

Ditto permanent POW sacrifices. Having to refigure your skills category modifiers every time added frustration to the system, but it didn't "break" it.

 

[atgxtg]

That is what they stated. But there is more than law in the domain of IP. Charlie Krank cannot sue Issaries or Mongoose if they just quote RQ2 or RQ3. And he never would. But MRQ and BRP must be different, yet sibling, game systems.

Because the two (three?) companies respect each other.

It's called fair competition. And it appears that the RPG industry is the last branch where this word still has a meaning

That's all just speculation on your part. And pretty poor speculation at that. Mongoose lied to everyone as to why they changed things out of respect for Issaries and Chaosum for a product that Mongoose had purchased the rights to? It is like you have some sort of fantasy about what is going on, and don't want to be bothered by what the people involved have said. No, they changed the game because they wanted to, not because the had to.

As far as fair completition goes, that's definitely a fantasy. Just look at the bankrolls of the companies. There is no way small companies like Chaosium or Issaries can actually "compete" with larger companies such as Mongoose or WotC. WotC probably makes more money in one year than Chasoium has ever made. That not competition, it's coexistence.

-Fatigue wasn't broken, it worked. Most people didn't like keeping track of it, but it worked.

Absolutely true. I loved the RQ3-like fatigue system in Morrowind. This system is perfect for computer based games.

But in pen & paper games it turns FUN into BOREDOM. Which means it is BROKEN. A mathematically perfect, yet boring, system, in a domain that is about FUN, is BROKEN.

No, because boring is subjective. There are many things that one person might find boring that another does not. Lots of people love Call of Cthulhu. I find a game where the goal is to survive long enough to go permanently insane less than entertaining. That doesn't make the game broken, just something I don't enjoy playing. If something can be called broken just because someone finds it to be boring, then every game is broken.

Or do you mean that it is broken because you find it boring?

Now having results on a combat matrix that NEVER came up, that's BROKEN.

Agreed. Why didn't you use that many capitals when I posted three threads about the player's update in June?

Because back in June you were posting about the players update so we were all allowed to voice complaints by the great and powerful RosenMcStern.

Why didh't you post that many capitals when I stated "the real problems are runes in Glorantha" just two days ago? [note: I still think you can have a fun game in Glorantha using Rune Magic, with some fixes]

Because two days ago when I didn't use all those captital letters you just skipped over my post about how a change in the core game mechanic is more important that an issue that only affects the portion of groups that run in Glorantha, or how Rurik's (or anyone else's gripes) are just a valid as yours.

At that time, I didn't think captial letters were required to get you to address the issues. I was wrong. If you like, we can all conduct an investigation on the number of capital letters I use, my choice of font size, color, and punctuation? We could also get into why you don't put a space between Rosen and McStern, but neither Not that it would have any bearing on the validity of any of the content of any of our posts. Or we could shout "FIRE! FIRE!" (oops, there I go again) and look for some other diversion.


It just looks to me that you want Mongoose to address what is important to you, and you alone, eyerone else's issues are not important.

But then, thanks to the overall changes you won't be ale to get Glorantha out of the MRQ rules without changes anyway. With reusable divine magic, and "rune magic" requiring runes, Divine Magic will be much more common and Spirit magic much less common. Spell tactics have completely changed (for instance, not much point in a mass disrupt anymore.)

Which I see as an improvement. It feels less RQ3 and more Glorantha.

You see it as an improvement. Well that's one. Frankly after seeing HeroQuest I wouldn't say that MRQ'S changes make the game more like Glornatha. And others here, including you, seem to think that MRQ isn't working right for Glorantha, especially the runes. In fact, you think it is the most impotant item that needs to be fixed.

If it so badly broken as to be the number one issue that needs to be addressed, how can it be an improvement?

 

[atgxtg]

That is what they stated. But there is more than law in the domain of IP. Charlie Krank cannot sue Issaries or Mongoose if they just quote RQ2 or RQ3. And he never would. But MRQ and BRP must be different, yet sibling, game systems.

Because the two (three?) companies respect each other.

It's called fair competition. And it appears that the RPG industry is the last branch where this word still has a meaning

That's all just speculation on your part. And pretty poor speculation at that. Mongoose lied to everyone as to why they changed things out of respect for Issaries and Chaosum for a product that Mongoose had purchased the rights to? It is like you have some sort of fantasy about what is going on, and don't want to be bothered by what the people involved have said. No, they changed the game because they wanted to, not because the had to.

As far as fair completition goes, that's definitely a fantasy. Just look at the bankrolls of the companies. There is no way small companies like Chaosium or Issaries can actually "compete" with larger companies such as Mongoose or WotC. WotC probably makes more money in one year than Chasoium has ever made. That not competition, it's coexistence.

-Fatigue wasn't broken, it worked. Most people didn't like keeping track of it, but it worked.

Absolutely true. I loved the RQ3-like fatigue system in Morrowind. This system is perfect for computer based games.

But in pen & paper games it turns FUN into BOREDOM. Which means it is BROKEN. A mathematically perfect, yet boring, system, in a domain that is about FUN, is BROKEN.

No, because boring is subjective. There are many things that one person might find boring that another does not. Lots of people love Call of Cthulhu. I find a game where the goal is to survive long enough to go permanently insane less than entertaining. That doesn't make the game broken, just something I don't enjoy playing. If something can be called broken just because someone finds it to be boring, then every game is broken.

Or do you mean that it is broken because you find it boring?

Now having results on a combat matrix that NEVER came up, that's BROKEN.

Agreed. Why didn't you use that many capitals when I posted three threads about the player's update in June?

Because back in June you were posting about the players update so we were all allowed to voice complaints by the great and powerful RosenMcStern.

Why didh't you post that many capitals when I stated "the real problems are runes in Glorantha" just two days ago? [note: I still think you can have a fun game in Glorantha using Rune Magic, with some fixes]

Because two days ago when I didn't use all those captital letters you just skipped over my post about how a change in the core game mechanic is more important that an issue that only affects the portion of groups that run in Glorantha, or how Rurik's (or anyone else's gripes) are just a valid as yours.

At that time, I didn't think captial letters were required to get you to address the issues. I was wrong. If you like, we can all conduct an investigation on the number of capital letters I use, my choice of font size, color, and punctuation? We could also get into why you don't put a space between Rosen and McStern, but neither Not that it would have any bearing on the validity of any of the content of any of our posts. Or we could shout "FIRE! FIRE!" (oops, there I go again) and look for some other diversion.


It just looks to me that you want Mongoose to address what is important to you, and you alone, everyone else's issues are not important.

But then, thanks to the overall changes you won't be ale to get Glorantha out of the MRQ rules without changes anyway. With reusable divine magic, and "rune magic" requiring runes, Divine Magic will be much more common and Spirit magic much less common. Spell tactics have completely changed (for instance, not much point in a mass disrupt anymore.)

Which I see as an improvement. It feels less RQ3 and more Glorantha.

You see it as an improvement. Well that's one. Frankly after seeing HeroQuest I wouldn't say that MRQ'S changes make the game more like Glornatha. And others here, including you, seem to think that MRQ isn't working right for Glorantha, especially the runes. In fact, you think it is the most impotant item that needs to be fixed.

If it so badly broken as to be the number one issue that needs to be addressed, how can it be an improvement?