What's new in Deluxe?

[RosenMcStern]

Just look at the bankrolls of the companies.

Can you do such a thing? I think Matt Sprange should be rather worried...

WotC probably makes more money in one year than Chasoium has ever made.

I never mentioned WotC.

Or do you mean that it is broken because you find it boring?

No, because everyone (but you) found it boring. Luckily it belongs to the past.

Because back in June you were posting about the players update so we were all allowed to voice complaints by the great and powerful RosenMcStern.

Please.

Because two days ago when I didn't use all those captital letters you just skipped over my post about how a change in the core game mechanic is more important that an issue that only affects the portion of groups that run in Glorantha, or how Rurik's (or anyone else's gripes) are just a valid as yours.

Did not skip anything, just did not agree with you on that subject. Usually agree with 80% of what Rurik says. And the remaining 20% gives rise to very interesting, _polite_ flame wars.

At that time, I didn't think captial letters were required to get you to address the issues. I was wrong.

Was just pointing out that all-caps are generally considered, erm, not very. Apparently you did not get the hidden meaning. My mistake.

It just looks to me that you want Mongoose to address what is important to you, and you alone, eyerone else's issues are not important.

I thought this debate was about me having lost hope ("get over it") that Mongoose would ever fix what I (and Rurik) consider broken.

Which I see as an improvement. It feels less RQ3 and more Glorantha.

If it so badly broken as to be the number one issue that needs to be addressed, how can it be an improvement?

What is broken IMO, if it has not been clarified enough, is the "runes are integrated until death" and "Chaos Rune needed to cast Orlanthi magic" sort of things. Not the change of balance between Rune Magic and Divine Magic. The latter is a matter of game mechanics, while the former influences roleplaying.

Ah, and we should also stop flaming, now. All this is getting very personal and hardly interesting.

 

[Sinisalo]

Thanks for that, RMS. I think RQ2/3 are pretty much the best rules, but I've not played at such high levels or seen the Stormbringer variation. So it's good to hear the frequently-made "RQ doesn't scale" and "SB is better" assertions refuted by someone who knows.

!

I played a mixture of RQ2 and 3 for years at very high levels. I, and I imagine many others, took bits of SB and pendragon and added them on seeing those rules as a logical development to RQ. Even simple things like Luck rolls (which everyone uses) came from another game (CoC I think).

The way I see it Mongoose were given RQ3 and told give us an exciting new game based on that (which they did) but ignored the development that came after RQ3. They've made inroads with the update.

The old RQ I love, make no bones about it. But this is the reason why better scalability is important IMHO.

1) RQ was designed for skills between 1-120%, high skill play wasnt factore in when they designed it.

2) My own involvement in full contact combat sports suggests that it is the difference between skills of the participants that decides how long it takes to defeat an opponent. So in an amateur cage fight two people with submitting skills of 30% and 20% the 30% guy will likely defeat his opponent in the same amount of time as two guys with 130% and 120% or 230% and 220%. Thats ignoring chance. Thats also an empirical observation on my part. In RQ3 the difference between 130% and 120% in practice was negligable. A proper scalable system like the update and Heroquest makes it more important.

And for anyone who's got beyond even the 200% mark, you really should be moving on to HeroQuesting. No, I don't mean with Greg's HeroWars/HeroQuest - but try soltakss's HeroQuesting rules...

Greg's Heroquest is awesome but just not RQ. If it had hit points and damage dice (of some kind) I wouldn't be here. Thunder Rebels gave us a thousand times more playable info for the Orlanthi than any supplement before or after. The game doesn't deserve negativity from anyone.

 

[soltakss]

I keep hearing the old chestnut that RQ is only good up to 120% ....

It's a load of old rubbish!

We played several campaigns with high percentages and the RQ rules scaled quite nicely, thank you.

If you use RQ2 anti-parry, then combat becomes very deadly when facing someone with a much higher skill than you. If you don't then there are ways around the attack-parry-attack-parry-attack-parry problems with RQ3.

HeroQuest scales better, but loses some of the grittiness that I like about RQ.

So, come on, please don't glibly state that RQ is only goof up to 120% unless you have played in a campaign where skills go much higher.

Funnily enough, though, I was talking a while ago to a player from an old RQ2 camapign which had skills between 140% and 220% and we were talking about the continuation of the campaign that had skills between 200% and 500% and he said that skills at that level were just silly .....

So, different people have different ideas about how high RQ can go.

1000% is probably the limit for me, but we achieved that and more in my game (350% attack, Berserker doubles attack to 700%, a special ability to double again against broos to 1400% then a big dollop of Crush to 1600% - automatic crushing/special, 80% critical chance, 16% special critical chance, 3% Supercritical and 1% Hypercritical chance. We didn't bother with attacking from behind .....

 

[Sinisalo]

HeroQuest scales better, but loses some of the grittiness that I like about RQ.

Which is the point, isn't it?

So, come on, please don't glibly state that RQ is only goof up to 120% unless you have played in a campaign where skills go much higher.

I have. My point was it wasn't *designed* to be so.

So, different people have different ideas about how high RQ can go.

I never said otherwise

1000% is probably the limit for me, but we achieved that and more in my game (350% attack, Berserker doubles attack to 700%, a special ability to double again against broos to 1400% then a big dollop of Crush to 1600% - automatic crushing/special, 80% critical chance, 16% special critical chance, 3% Supercritical and 1% Hypercritical chance. We didn't bother with attacking from behind .....

My emphasis. What are these?. You can't use house rules as evidence in your argument!

edited to add:
Though the above was very similar to one solution I came up with to deal with scalability, funnily enough

 

[frogspawner]

And for anyone who's got beyond even the 200% mark, you really should be moving on to HeroQuesting. No, I don't mean with Greg's HeroWars/HeroQuest - but try soltakss's HeroQuesting rules...

Greg's Heroquest is awesome but just not RQ. If it had hit points and damage dice (of some kind) I wouldn't be here. Thunder Rebels gave us a thousand times more playable info for the Orlanthi than any supplement before or after. The game doesn't deserve negativity from anyone.

Sorry, didn't mean to be negative - just clarifying. (I don't know HQ - never got past HW). And more Orlanthi background's gotta be good, hasn't it? But OK, I guess it is somewhat negative to point out an RQ-extension can make HQ unnecessary... ;-)
(BTW Sorry again, but Luck rolls were in RQ2).

 

[soltakss]

My emphasis[/i]. What are these?. You can't use house rules as evidence in your argument!

Yes, I can

 

[RosenMcStern]

So, come on, please don't glibly state that RQ is only goof up to 120% unless you have played in a campaign where skills go much higher.

I have. My point was it wasn't *designed* to be so.

A lot of things that were not designed for one purpose ended up being the best solution available for that purpose.

1000% is probably the limit for me, but we achieved that and more in my game (350% attack, Berserker doubles attack to 700%, a special ability to double again against broos to 1400% then a big dollop of Crush to 1600% - automatic crushing/special, 80% critical chance, 16% special critical chance, 3% Supercritical and 1% Hypercritical chance. We didn't bother with attacking from behind .....

My emphasis. What are these?. You can't use house rules as evidence in your argument!

Absolutely. Delete all the references to these non-canonical house rules invented by wicked Simon the Powergamer. You have to do with the plain 80% of scoring the old RQ3 critical hit, augmented with Crush 20 as stated in the example. Assuming the ZZ berserker is using a mere lead mace and not a troll maul, the damage is just 92 pts plus damage bonus, ignoring armor. Ah, and it's also some 80 meters knockback, with some 20d6 damage if the target hits a solid object, which is not the case as RQ3 combats were notoriously fought in the infamous Monster Coliseum. It is obviously not adequate to the scale, because Cwim or the Crimson Bat could ignore such a blow, and Cacodemon would just have his arm broken by it, and not maimed. :lol:

 

[RMS]

HeroQuest scales better, but loses some of the grittiness that I like about RQ.

Which is the point, isn't it?

Just a side note here but you can drop the HQ resolution skill system directly in for the RQ skills and have as much scalability as you want.

So, come on, please don't glibly state that RQ is only goof up to 120% unless you have played in a campaign where skills go much higher.

I have. My point was it wasn't *designed* to be so.

I don't buy that. It's easier to gain very high skills in RQII than in any other version of BRP, that I'm aware of. In fact, there are plenty of NPCs running around in early supplements with skills in excess of 120%. In addtion, characters continue to gain advantage in odds of criticals until skills surpass 1900% so skills don't cap until fairly high. None of that requires house rules and is in the original rules, as designed.

My emphasis[/i]. What are these?. You can't use house rules as evidence in your argument!

edited to add:
Though the above was very similar to one solution I came up with to deal with scalability, funnily enough

I'll repeat that none of the above is outside of the written rules. I use several houserules in RQ, but the only one I use for high skill levels is the one that MRQ added for reducing chances of failing for high skills. I've run several campaigns with skills in the hundreds of percents and nothing breaks down.

 

[Sinisalo]

Just a side note here but you can drop the HQ resolution skill system directly in for the RQ skills and have as much scalability as you want.

It's a little inelegant to say when 110% (as opposed to 100%) is reached you achieve a mastery. It's also inelegant for Mongoose just to borrow an original peice of Robin D Laws genius. I could borrow this as a house rule but lets not forget this is about Mongoose getting the rules right not me.

I believe they have done with the update (apart from the rune magic requiring runes business and no psychology rules). I won't be using the new combat tables (but will use opposed resolution) but that's alright because now the rules are good enough for me to bother with house ruling.

 

[RMS]

Just a side note here but you can drop the HQ resolution skill system directly in for the RQ skills and have as much scalability as you want.

It's a little inelegant to say when 110% (as opposed to 100%) is reached you achieve a mastery. It's also inelegant for Mongoose just to borrow an original peice of Robin D Laws genius. I could borrow this as a house rule but lets not forget this is about Mongoose getting the rules right not me.

I'm not following what you're talking about here, but it sounds like you're not following me. (FYI, I'm not talking about anything Mongoose right now. Yes, this would definitely be a houserule, but who cares. Good houserules make better games!) Divide all your skills be 5 and write them in HQ terms and have scalability that covers the entire spectrum.

I believe they have done with the update (apart from the rune magic requiring runes business and no psychology rules). I won't be using the new combat tables (but will use opposed resolution) but that's alright because now the rules are good enough for me to bother with house ruling.

No rules are ever "good enough" for me not to houserule to better rules. I'm thoroughly convinced of my ability to improve any set of rules I use over the written rules!

 

[atgxtg]

I got to agree with soltkss,

Just where did people get the idea that RQ wasn't designed to handle combat skills past 100 or 120%?

Two Words:Rune Lords

They game was designed to handle high skill rating very well. In fact, one thing I used to compare RQ to D&D was that RQ's combat system didn't break down for high level characters the way D&D did.

Between split attack, or the even increasing critical and special success chances, skills over 100% were handled quite nicely. I can recall an elf character who, thanks to Arrow Trance, was shooting 3 arrows per turn at 240%. A 12% critical chance and a 48% impale chance worked out quite nicely.

 

[AKAramis]

I got to agree with soltkss,

Just where did people get the idea that RQ wasn't designed to handle combat skills past 100 or 120%?

Two Words:Rune Lords

They game was designed to handle high skill rating very well. In fact, one thing I used to compare RQ to D&D was that RQ's combat system didn't break down for high level characters the way D&D did.

Between split attack, or the even increasing critical and special success chances, skills over 100% were handled quite nicely. I can recall an elf character who, thanks to Arrow Trance, was shooting 3 arrows per turn at 240%. A 12% critical chance and a 48% impale chance worked out quite nicely.

I concur.

While my RQ games never got very high-level, I did run ElfQuest... where a few lucky rolls could result in skills into the 140's for starting elves...

And combat runs just fine that high.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

I used to run a campaign where the main protagonist, the Lord Willem Calvenca aka Willpower, an Heortland Mercenary, Noble, King and Fool was around 250% in a lot of his skills. As with my high powered heroquest games, I simply set him challenges of equal might. He did not run with the other warriors when they went cattle raiding, he consorted with chieftains, kings and high priests. He did not fight simple broos, but took the battles deep into Snakepipe Hollow and wrestled Cacodeamon itself.

Willpower's comrades, including Amric the Bull, Praxian Khan and blessed of the White Bull, Hoon the Fat, an epileptic Uroxi, Santedeo Steele a wreckless Humakti and Calstar, Son of the Stars were all potent and powerful characters, but we never had the mechanics break down, as long as the challenges rose up to meet the players.

I must point out that every gross percentage score those characters had was truelly earned through hard work and tough challenges. I never gave them away lightly, but then again we were playing every lunch time, every other evening and most Sundays. Ah, for the heady days of nerdom, before I became a responsible parent.

Simon

 

[atgxtg]

In RQ, double an triple teaming was always the great equalizer. Seeing Mr. 120% drop down to 60% against two attackers explains why Rune Lords used to have a retinue.

Those 40% guys can hold off foes for a round or two while you butcher someone one on one. Then YOU can double team and mow down the enemy line.

 

[homerjsinnott]

I got to agree with soltkss,

the idea that RQ wasn't designed to handle combat skills past 100 or 120%?

Two Words:Rune Lords

They game was designed to handle high skill rating very well. In fact, one thing I used to compare RQ to D&D was that RQ's combat system didn't break down for high level characters the way D&D did.

Between split attack, or the even increasing critical and special success chances, skills over 100% were handled quite nicely. I can recall an elf character who, thanks to Arrow Trance, was shooting 3 arrows per turn at 240%. A 12% critical chance and a 48% impale chance worked out quite nicely.

I think the important phrase here is: "Just where did people get the idea that RQ wasn't designed to handle combat skills past 100 or 120%?"

As we both know Runequest was designed to handle these numbers. Past tense.

MRQ can't. Present tense.

 

[RosenMcStern]

MRQ can't.

This is just your opinion. The opposed roll mechanics allows handling of such high skills. After the update, the "opposed roll for combat" rule applies this sort of mechanics to fights, too. If you do not like this rule and do not want to use it, you are welcome to adjust the rules to your taste. Just do not complain about being unable to handle high skills: it is your variation of the rules that cannot handle it.

Edit: I am not very in favour of the update. It is just that "not handling high skills" is not among its many flaws.

 

[Sinisalo]

I think the important phrase here is: "Just where did people get the idea that RQ wasn't designed to handle combat skills past 100 or 120%?"

No, old RQ does handle skills over 100% and yes it is possible to gain high powered PCs with RQ2 and 3. The point about scalability isn't that it wasn't possible to play at high levels (I ran high powered games myself: we took over Soldier Port and had a go at the Crimson Bat). The point is that old RQ wasn't the best rules for doing so. A character with 200% in anything should demolish anybody with 50%. The mechanic for showing awesome skill is the critical and the special. The 200% guy has a critical of 10% and special of 40%, the 50% guy has a critical of 3% and special of 10%. The 200% guy should demolish the 50% without breaking a sweat but RQ 3 doesn't quite illustrate that.

Ok, you might say I quite like those chances it makes it possible for the little guy as well as fun for the powerful guy this is workable. I agree but...

Consider a hero with 800% and a demigod with 900%. The hero has special: 160% and critical: 40%. The demigod has special: 180% and critical: 45%. To all intents and purposes the battle is played over the criticals and there is only 5% in it.

Obviously to make it interesting we're going to need to invent new super-duper criticals and Holy Hyper Specials like other people have done to make it an interesting contest. Or we can have a properly sophisticated scalable system like the update or Heroquest (and yes even the new AD&D does it)

Sorry Soltkass I'm not slagging you off there, I came up with exactly the same solution myself (I had a superior success at 50% in my games) so I know where you are coming from.

The above is my opinion so keep your shirts on!

 

[Rurik]

The above is my opinion so keep your shirts on!

But I look damned good with my shirt off.

 

[homerjsinnott]

I think the important phrase here is: "Just where did people get the idea that RQ wasn't designed to handle combat skills past 100 or 120%?"

No, old RQ does handle skills over 100% and yes it is possible to gain high powered PCs with RQ2 and 3.

Thats exactly what I was saying.

A character with 200% in anything should demolish anybody with 50%. The mechanic for showing awesome skill is the critical and the special. The 200% guy has a critical of 10% and special of 40%, the 50% guy has a critical of 3% and special of 10%. The 200% guy should demolish the 50% without breaking a sweat but RQ 3 doesn't quite illustrate that.

Well in my book a guy with 200% would just reduct the guy with 50% down to 5% (still having 155% in his attack and parry) and then proceed to beat the living snot out of him (he could even aim blow down to 78% if he wanted to or have two attacks at said %age).

It's gunna last what, 1-3 melee rounds? (36 secionds) less if one takes into account the diffence in magic.

How the hell is that not "not breaking a sweat"?

 

[RosenMcStern]

Well in my book a guy with 200% would just reduct the guy with 50% down to 5% (still having 155% in his attack and parry) and then proceed to beat the living snot out of him (he could even aim blow down to 78% if he wanted to or have two attacks at said %age).

Exactly. In your book. But not in the (RQ3) rules. RQ2 allowed something similar, though.