What TL is Traveller?

[Supergamera]

Ghost In The Shell is a great anime SF setting that would work perfectly with TS.

GITS would be great with TS, but would require a lot of detail and attention from both the GM and players. Difficult, but potentially worth it.

Also remember that an RPG universe tends to be more open-ended than a book or series. When multiple people start filling in details of the same universe, you're going to get mismatches, like "big ship Imperium" vs. "small ship Imperium".

 

[kristof65]

But my point was that, with the one exemption of space travel, it doesn't feel like the way the game is described is a TL12-14 society - most of the functional technology the PCs are exposed to is of a fairly moderate tech level.

True - but take a look at our day to day lives now, compared to the lives of people in the 50s and 60s. Yes, there are things that have had major impacts o nthe way we live our lives today - cel phones, DVDs, the Internet, etc - but when it comes to day to day, particularly with the infrastructure, not that much has changed on the outside in 50 years. A lot of the things we take for granted in our day to day lives aren't cutting edge tech.

FREX, Automobiles. While the technology underlying them and the manufacturing of them has changed drastically, a car from the 50s can be as useful as a modern vehicle.

Or housing. The buildings might be taller, the yards smaller, and the houses more wired, but we're still living in basic boxes.

While we may be TL8 on average, when taken as a whole in the US, we are really ranging from TL 6 on up to TL 9 - the world as a whole has an even broader range thanks to third world countries and their unfortunate standards of living. Part of progress forward means getting rid of old tech and ways that are holding things back.

In an interstellar society like the OTU, it's entirely possible this is hard to do. When colonizing a new world, it's more effective to use lower technology, because it's easier to sustain. Spread across 11,000 worlds, and a single tech level becomes difficult to sustain - particularly at jump speeds. As long as you have lower tech still around, then it will affect things - even when you have higher tech.

So while the OTU may have worlds and even subsectors where TL 14-15 dominate, UNLESS those worlds choose to completely disregard lower tech worlds, they still have to interact with them - and that can potentially lead to some very different ways of thinking about things.

IMO, there are several factors in the OTU that lead to this "unrealistic" view of the future - the nature of jump and therefore interstellar communications/trade and the dispersement of humaniti by the Ancients being two big ones.

 

[rust]

The Tech becomes availabel with the second or third Ringworld Novel, not the first one. And he did not write any others that are dated past that specific novel.

Of course he did.

"Ringworld's Children" is the fourth Ringworld novel, written in 2004,
and the sequel to "Ringworld's Throne":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld%27s_Children

Besides, not only the Ringworld technology is much higher developed
than the OTU technology, the same is true for the Puppeteer technology,
and Niven finished other Known Space novels against the background of
this technology not so long ago, "Fleet of Worlds" and "Juggler of Worlds".

 

[Epicenter]

There are energy weapons, but the damage they do is only a little higher than current projectile weapons

I could go on with rationalizations about how people will make weapons just barely powerful enough for the task at hand, then work on making it lighter, smaller, and safer/easier to use but that's just rationalization. The real reason? Bullets are cool. While solid-state is more sound from an engineering point of view, emotionally we like stuff with moving parts that appeals to the lizard brain in us ("ooo...movement!") - the high rate-of-fire of modern day gatling guns is only a secondary reason for why people like them. The main reason is whirling barrels.

That is my honest-to-God conclusion.

People like guns that make a satisfying bang, autofire that lights up the room like a strobelight at a rave, bone-jarring recoil you have to grit your teeth and ride like an electric bull at a rodeo, and uses some powerful mechanical motion to spits out spent brass casings like some Industrial Age engine that manufactures death.

There is interstellar trade from the technological heart of the Imperium out to the rim planets - but also the other way, because rich high-tech planets cannot synthesise food but require it to be imported at great expense.

Traveller is the "Age of Sail" in space. Everything else sort of sits uneasily on that foundation. GDW's writers had a great emotional attachment to the period of European colonialism right up to about the First World War and based many of their speculative games on that period.

Now this isn't a criticism of the game, because actually this sense of being high tech yet not high tech is part of the charm of the setting, and really distinguishes it from, for example, the likes of Star Trek. But what, therefore, is the functional TL of the Imperium? It feels more like maybe TL9 or 10, with some of the trappings of advanced society but, outside of their spaceships, not a huge amount of really advanced, Arthur C. Clark magic quote-esque, hyper technology.

The typical "mainstream" Imperial world is TL12 I remember reading somewhere. It might have been something GDW said or it might have been some conclusion by players, but TL12 is the TL I see bandied about a lot. Myself, I prefer a more "realistic" TL10-11 (without tiny fusion reactors and grav tech, both of which I think makes stuff too easy).

A couple of other observations I've made about Traveller:

- The Traveller TL scale isn't linear in progression. The differences between TLs become successively smaller and more incremental in nature the higher in TL you go. The early TLs are quantum leaps in ability and improvement. The differences between TL13 and TL14 are pretty much purely incremental. It would be like saying that Nvidia moves from 7700 series cards to 8700 series cards, Nvidia has gone from TL13 to TL14. There's some bigger leaps once you get out to TL16, but there's definitely a dead-zone between like TL12-15.

- Traveller, despite its aura of "hard sci-fi" that many people would like to give it, is a space opera universe. It has more to do with Firefly (with many suspecting that Wheldon was probably a Traveller player), Star Wars, and Star Trek than 2001. This is important to remember because it means that stories drive the tech, not the other way around. Specifically, Traveller was pretty strongly designed to simulate the "Age of Sail" in space. If you feel that Traveller isn't high-tech, it's because it isn't.

- Traveller's writers, like most people, found it very difficult to imagine the future. They kept falling back to familiar things in everyday life or history, dressing it up a bit so it looks like the future, and calling it a day.

 

[EDG]

- Traveller's writers, like most people, found it very difficult to imagine the future. They kept falling back to familiar things in everyday life or history, dressing it up a bit so it looks like the future, and calling it a day.

I would submit that writers who "have trouble imagining the future" have no business writing for a SF RPG (or any scifi at all).

I hope we'll see some interstellar OGL settings that distance themselves from this whole "Age of Sail in space" thing. I prefer my scifi to be logical, not limited by arbitrary historical simulation.

 

[kristof65]

I would submit that writers who "have trouble imagining the future" have no business writing for a SF RPG (or any scifi at all).

Maybe, though I suspect that what Epicenter was trying to say is that imagining the future isn't so clear cut. One only has to look at the progression of sci-fi throughout the decades to see that. What may seem perfectly logical based on real science or current culture may seem utterly ridiculous just ten years later.

It's kind of a catch-22 - in order to imagine the future you need to think big and anticipate profound change, but if you do that, unless you're really lucky, your stuff is likely to be "proven" wrong within a decade.

Traveller's "age of sail" attitude seems to more accurately reflect the realities of space travel than other sci-fi of the 70s, though - as in, travel between stars takes a long time, and communication is at the speed of travel.

 

[rust]

Traveller's "age of sail" attitude seems to more accurately reflect the realities of space travel than other sci-fi of the 70s, though - as in, travel between stars takes a long time, and communication is at the speed of travel.

I am not really convinced that we know enough about "the realities of
space travel" to judge whether Traveller could accurately reflect them.

 

[Infojunky]

Specifically, Traveller was pretty strongly designed to simulate the "Age of Sail" in space. If you feel that Traveller isn't high-tech, it's because it isn't.

Yes, is there a problem with that? I don't really have one with it. I have seen the disparity of the rest of the world, and for the most point people are going to live at the level that works for them.

Just today I have a good example of this, I made Tortillas by hand. While I didn't mill the flour or mix up the baking powder from parts, everything else was done just like my Grandmother did way back when on the Rez. Heck the Cast-iron pans are hers from her mother, 100 years old or so. Any ways this task really hasn't changed much in the 400 years or so my family has been here in the Basin and Range of Southwestern North America.

Or What I really am saying is that Tech is is just that, culture is the big issue in Traveller. Now there are going to be places where rapid technological change is going to upset the indigenous culture, but for most of your standard Traveller universes Tech Shock is a thing of the past.

Though contemplating this, I did postulate that fusing Gurps:Transhuman Space and Gurps:Traveller "The Interstellar Wars" would make a interesting and plausible campaign.

 

[rust]

Any ways this task really hasn't changed much in the 400 years or so my family has been here in the Basin and Range of Southwestern North America.

Some tasks (e.g. a hair cut) do not change much with technology, others
(e.g. medical treatment) change a lot, and their changes influence the cul-
tures affected by these changes significantly.

While it may be nice to cook the way it was done 400 years ago, I am al-
most certain that you would be somewhat disappointed if your local hos-
pital would treat you the way it was done 400 years ago.

 

[Ishmael]

Its kind of hard to answer such a question when tech level is based more on the arbitrary placement of starports and how difficult it is to live on a world ( less earth-like ) than on social or population data.

Its hard to answer such a question when people can barely agree about tech level means ( industrial_capabilty vs. what's_available_for_purchase ) or the economics of transporting it from place to place.

It seems to me that most tech should be on hi-pop worlds where most of the people are, but most worlds will have far fewer people and thus have far lower tech unless they can afford to import stuff. ( I follow the idea that tech=industrial_capacity).

mtu is tech 9 to 11 for the most part with a few places a bit higher...

 

[EDG]

Traveller's "age of sail" attitude seems to more accurately reflect the realities of space travel than other sci-fi of the 70s, though - as in, travel between stars takes a long time, and communication is at the speed of travel.

That's the only similarity though. Some people seem to take "age of sail" to include things like how piracy was back then, how space combat should work, etc.

Sure, people will have to be more independent if they're in a different system, but one should also remember (that unlike the age of sail) communication within those systems (i.e. on the planets themselves) are going to be pretty much instantaneous as they are today - at least if they're above TL 5 or 6. I think that's often ignored though because people tend to treat planets as one-dimensional equivalents of "towns" and forget that there's a whole planet outside the starport (or even other planets in the same system).

 

[Infojunky]

While it may be nice to cook the way it was done 400 years ago, I am al-
most certain that you would be somewhat disappointed if your local hos-
pital would treat you the way it was done 400 years ago.

I don't know about that trepanation and leeches are making a come-back.

But in general while Medical advances have taken place and medical care is more wildly available, what obvious cultural changes does that make?

 

[rust]

But in general while Medical advances have taken place and medical care is more wildly available, what obvious cultural changes does that make?

For example, it significantly changes the size and thereby the structures
of families and whole societies.

With a very high probability that each of the born children will survive to
adulthood, in almost all cultures the number of children per family will go
down, more time and money will be invested into the education of the
fewer children, children will become a much smaller percentage of the
entire society ... - to give just some example how the development of
medical technology can influence a culture.

 

[kristof65]

Traveller's "age of sail" attitude seems to more accurately reflect the realities of space travel than other sci-fi of the 70s, though - as in, travel between stars takes a long time, and communication is at the speed of travel.

I am not really convinced that we know enough about "the realities of
space travel" to judge whether Traveller could accurately reflect them.

Aah, but I said "more". At this point, we don't know that FTL is possible, in any form.

Star Wars, Star Trek and Buck Rogers, to name a few from the 60s and 70s, all typically had relatively fast FTL travel (Star Wars Hyperdrive - a few hours, at most) and most had FTL communications, which allowed news to travel faster than people.

I've done a lot of reading about the possibility of FTL over the last few years. While I don't pretend to understand most of it beyond conceptual, all of the "experts" do seem to agree that if FTL is possible, whatever form it takes will likely set the speed of FTL communication as well.

That's what I was refering to.

 

[rust]

I've done a lot of reading about the possibility of FTL over the last few years. While I don't pretend to understand most of it beyond conceptual, all of the "experts" do seem to agree that if FTL is possible, whatever form it takes will likely set the speed of FTL communication as well.

You are right, but from all we know both - communication and travel -
could just as well be instantaneous or at least almost instantaneous
(think of artificial wormholes, stargates or thelike), eliminating any real
difference between communication and travel, and creating a future
universe completely different from Traveller's OTU.

 

[Infojunky]

But in general while Medical advances have taken place and medical care is more wildly available, what obvious cultural changes does that make?

For example, it significantly changes the size and thereby the structures
of families and whole societies.

With a very high probability that each of the born children will survive to
adulthood, in almost all cultures the number of children per family will go
down, more time and money will be invested into the education of the
fewer children, children will become a much smaller percentage of the
entire society ... - to give just some example how the development of
medical technology can influence a culture.

Well yes and no, Medical technology really is a minor role in the family size question. A bigger factor is economic necessity, if you need x number of children to survive and make a profit your going to have that many. And yest here Medical tech helps, but you still have to meet x. Now if you change your culture where children aren't necessary for economic viability well then you have removed one pressure for another.

While technology has an effect, the local cultural norms also have a larger effect. As well as economic requirements. It a closed circle, where not one thing drives the total.

Consider this why is Western Europe's and Japan's "Native" population declining?

 

[DCAnsell]

In MTU, which is my take on OTU, if that's helpful, the basic technology of frontline Imperial warships is 14, with some elite/showcase units at 15. Most tradeships of whatever size are tech 11-12.

As far as day to day tech is concerned, its very much a matter of local tech level. I treat tech level as measuring what can be generally maintained or produced locally.

Even a non-industrial world, which by definition lacks large scale manufacturing capacity, will have workshops and skilled personnel generally available to at least maintain technologies of that planet's tech level. Some small-scale production might also take place, especially if the planet is far from a more industrialized place that can produce technology of its tech level.

That said, for specialized uses, perhaps military or governmental, or just the wealthy, technology can be imported, either on a large or small scale.
Even a more or less average family might well have something higher tech then their own world can produce, if its legal and/or available.

But day to day, people live according to the local tech level. A farmer living on a Tech 5 planet might well have a tech level 9 laser rifle, or a hydrogen powered tractor using a Tech 10 fuel cell, but his clothes, the radio set he listens to the local weather forecasts on (even if those weather forecasts are aided by high tech weather satellites owned by the planetary government) and most of the items he uses in his daily life are going to be things he can get locally, most likely manufactured on planet, unless his world happens to be on a trade main, and the manufacturing centers of the world next door are flooding the market with goods made cheap by better industrial tech.

 

[rust]

Consider this why is Western Europe's and Japan's "Native" population declining?

As usual with cultures and societies, there are many factors involved, but
I am convinced that the development of the medical technology is a very
important one - just think of the consequences of the introduction of easy
to use contraceptives (clearly to be seen in pregnancy statistics).

 

[Epicenter]

But in general while Medical advances have taken place and medical care is more wildly available, what obvious cultural changes does that make?

There's huge changes.

As rust pointed out, there's the things we're dealing with right now. Improving health care has meant that people are living longer. The entire social idea of what to do when medicine can keep someone alive yet are incapable in other areas with the quality of life has degraded to the point where living seems pointless - the euthanasia question - is a social question is something that has gained special relevance lately.

- The shrinking size of the family, people having children later in life. Or even the neoteny problem - people not getting married or having kids at all during their lives because they want to enjoy their extended childhood and figuring "there'll be time later on" and never getting married or having kids.

- Customs based around high child mortality become irrelevant. For instance, some cultures with high child mortality would dress the boys up like girls (since girls are stronger early in life), or other cultures wouldn't name their infants until some age to "see if they'd make it."

- 40 is no longer considered an age where you're essentially useless.

- The idea of "age-ism" that is, discrimination for jobs and so on based on age, has gained a special relevance as older people find they have to keep working to support themselves, and there's that many more older people around and there's enough of them that their voices are being heard.

- Getting stabbed in the gut no longer means an drawn-out death sentence through sepsis. Antibiotics mean that infected wounds are longer a candidate for amputation or death. A host of diseases once thought fatal are no longer fatal, indeed many are simply inconveniences now. This actually socially reduces acceptance of the idea that "sh*t happens." The value of a single life goes up. For instance, someone who gets greviously injured in some accident like hunting or even out in a field farming is no longer thinking so much about how his wife and kids will be taken care of, he and those around him are more concerned with getting the person medical help.

- With superior medicine, people gain that much more control over their own lives. Religion declines in importance as a result as religion for many people is a way to accept a frequently cruel and meaningless world beyond one's understanding and control. While many might assume this is a good thing, spirituality actually has a lot of pros that many disregard as well, and those go away as well.

 

[GamerDude]

I would submit that writers who "have trouble imagining the future" have no business writing for a SF RPG (or any scifi at all).

I hope we'll see some interstellar OGL settings that distance themselves from this whole "Age of Sail in space" thing. I prefer my scifi to be logical, not limited by arbitrary historical simulation.

The future is what you imagine it.

A number of years ago IBM ran a series of commercials featuring Avery Brooks ("Hawk" and "STS9") where he kept talking about all the technology we were supposed to have according to futurists of the 40's and 50's.... "Where are my flying cars? I want my flying cars!"


Who is to say that when we finally develop FTL Travel that we'll also have FTL Communications that are faster that just sending the message on a ship? To me that's how the whole "age of sail" comparison applies to the Traveller setting, ships being the fastest means of getting a message large distances. No wireless communications, no internet, nothing faster than actually traveling to the place with the message.

Honestly I think we've been spoiled with all this 'soft scifi' like Star Wars, Star Trek and such. Seemingly instantaneous communications around the known galaxy, nearly as fast travel between star systems and such.