Low Tech sophonts

[MasterGwydion]

How does it function in Traveller if you want to train a person from a low tech world to be an Engineer on a TL-15 starship? Like Noricum, TL-1. They don't even know about electricity, but they have contact with high tech ships at the starport. How do you still not know about electricity? It is not like they have to discover the tech. They just have to read a higher TL science book. As far as I am aware, there is no mechanic for playing a low tech character in a high tech setting. Anyone know of any rules for this in MgT2?

Edit: Can you imagine Roman galleys using a human-powered propeller instead of oars? The propeller hasn't been invented by TL-1, but if they learned of a propeller, one can be designed to use the technology available to a TL-1 society to power it. (think of a long crankshaft given it's force by teams of men using it like bicycle pedals.) Is that still TL-1 or is that a higher TL?

 

[Condottiere]

Limitations on Educational characteristic.

You have to increase that, first.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Limitations on Educational characteristic.

You have to increase that, first.

but EDU is not reduced for low tech level sophonts. Not in the rules anyhow. Unless I missed something somewhere?

 

[Nelphine]

Given how education of people from North Korea goes, I would guess you just teach them. I wouldn't expect there to be an EDU limit.

 

[Condottiere]

There isn't, but I wouldn't expect Archimedes to design warp engines.

Education is relative to the civilization that the educateee received his.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There isn't, but I wouldn't expect Archimedes to design warp engines.

Education is relative to the civilization that the educateee received his.

Not in the current MgT2 rules it isn't. Maybe it should be, but it currently isn't.

 

[Nelphine]

I'd go the other way and say if an engineer taught him Archimedes absolutely could design warp drives. Whether it should or not, that matches with media (happens all the time in movies and books), and what limited experience I've seen.

 

[Condottiere]

Well, you could do a Dumarest, and recruit bright sparks to operate jump drives.

Slavery is illegal, indenturement is not - you can pay them pretty low wages, and they can't quit once they figure out they're being hosed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'd go the other way and say if an engineer taught him Archimedes absolutely could design warp drives. Whether it should or not, that matches with media (happens all the time in movies and books), and what limited experience I've seen.

Another thing I have wondered. Since the robot rules have come out, human brains can be hacked. If they can be hacked, why can't new skills simply be uploaded? Heck, RH allows you to use a sophont as an Avatar and Avatars can be hacked, so adding a skill should be easy. Although, I totally doubt the was the intent of the writers.

Nowhere does it say how much Bandwidth a human brain has, but it should. Isn't a human brain simply a biological robot brain of TL-16 or above? Maybe Bandwidth is INT + EDU? Geir, do you have an opinion on this?

 

[Condottiere]

Well, consciousness may be a byproduct of quantum entanglement.

 

[Geir]

The rules say 'bandwidth' (yes, not a good term) is 3 x INT and EDU, which even the village idiot has to work to hit it. Said INT 2 EDU 2 dunce would get 12.

(If we assume an average of ~3 skill per term, and that includes connections and and a couple for a skill package, then it probably drops to 2 or less in later terms - an average of 42 puts you 14 terms in and later if you're focused on grabbing characteristics to avoid aging rot).

There's really not much new in Robots that didn't derive from wafer jacks, Agent of the Imperium, or T5.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Again I refer to the greatness of CT:

Experience
As characters travel through the universe, they already know their basic physical and mental parameters: their basic education and physical development have already occurred, and further improvement can happen only through dedicated endeavor. The experience which is gained as the individual character travels and adventures is, in a very real sense, an increased ability to play the role which he or she has assumed.
<snip of improvement rules>
ALTERNATIVES
The above is the only ordinary method of self-improvement available to characters.
Highly scientific or esoteric methods of improving personal skills and characteristics are logically available, provided the individuals search hard enough for them.
Such methods could include RNA intelligence or education implants, surgical alteration, military or mercenary training, and other systems. Alternatives to the above <the stuff I snipped> methods must be administered by the referee.

So in addition to skill wafers (T5) how about a training robot - in CT terms it can have instruction 4 and then load any skill program at 4 so can teach up to skill level 3. Then there is memory editing (T5), so you could implant the memories of learning a skill, all sorts of possibilities. Psionic memory/skill transfer anyone?

All the Traveller has to do is earn the money to pay for them.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The rules say 'bandwidth' (yes, not a good term) is 3 x INT and EDU, which even the village idiot has to work to hit it. Said INT 2 EDU 2 dunce would get 12.

This actually makes sense. To create a functional human brain from scratch would be above TL-15. It also gives you a good idea of how far natural sophont brains are above, artificially created ones. The problem that you have then, is a simple TL-15 Self-Aware Brain, should have a bandwidth of 36, not 15.

(If we assume an average of ~3 skill per term, and that includes connections and and a couple for a skill package, then it probably drops to 2 or less in later terms - an average of 42 puts you 14 terms in and later if you're focused on grabbing characteristics to avoid aging rot).

There's really not much new in Robots that didn't derive from wafer jacks, Agent of the Imperium, or T5.

Doesn't matter. You brought it together in one place. That alone is worth the price of admission.

 

[Geir]

This actually makes sense. To create a functional human brain from scratch would be above TL-15. It also gives you a good idea of how far natural sophont brains are above, artificially created ones. The problem that you have then, is a simple TL-15 Self-Aware Brain, should have a bandwidth of 36, not 15.

You can upgrade it by up to 25 additional, so its not out of line. Plus, to make the the existing pile or robots wedge into the mechanic, I incorporated the DMs for INT into the posted skill level - not elegant, but it works (just don't apply the DM a second time for robots, but that's tangential an unrelated thread) so at INT 15 all the Intellect-based skills get elevated by 3. Just think of it as robot brains working 'differently' than organic ones. Or something - they get the benefit of being 'expert' but not of thinking out of the box.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You can upgrade it by up to 25 additional, so its not out of line. Plus, to make the the existing pile or robots wedge into the mechanic, I incorporated the DMs for INT into the posted skill level - not elegant, but it works (just don't apply the DM a second time for robots, but that's tangential an unrelated thread) so at INT 15 all the Intellect-based skills get elevated by 3.

You do add in the INT modifier. The only difference is that the stat block for robots already includes the INT modifier, so don't add it twice. Skill/0 + INT 15 = Skill/3 (basically) and the RH has everything already included.

Just think of it as robot brains working 'differently' than organic ones. Or something - they get the benefit of being 'expert' but not of thinking out of the box.

This last bit doesn't really work though, since the rules for cybernetics, which I assume also includes robotics (since both you and I like systems to work smoothly together), states that most cybernetics can be mechanical or biological in nature. I am also assuming that this was done to give players and referees more options, but it has this result as a side effect as well. Also, robot brains can and do think outside of the box, once they are TL-16. Sophont Brains would be considered at minimum, TL-16 if you tried to build one.

 

[agentwigggles]

The TL of a planet, isnt strictly related to the education and experience of the sophonts there. The TL is a measure of what the planet economy can produce and maintain domestically. There is also no strict corelation bbetween a planet TL and starport quality. There is also very little in the means of a 'prime directive'. So low TL worlds can and do interact with higher TL worlds.

This means sophonts from low TL worlds can work as a mechanic at the starport, even though there home is a earthen mound. This means that sophont can go off world and get educated at a subsector capital and come back to their low TL world. This means that low TL sophonts can get drafted into the Merchant Marines. This means that sophont in low TL world can be taught how a high TL system works, even if they dont interact much with them.
The Imperium has a mandate to raise the TL of its client states, so its interested and invested in do that.

If the question was really about a sheltered low TL sophont, who for whatever reason, never seen any advance piece of technology, and its all of a out of context problem.
Then the answer is, it takes a while.

They never grow a deeper understanding how it works.
BBbut they can bbe taught how to do operations, and how do things in rhote. That doesnt require deeper understanding why its done that way.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The TL of a planet, isnt strictly related to the education and experience of the sophonts there. The TL is a measure of what the planet economy can produce and maintain domestically. There is also no strict corelation bbetween a planet TL and starport quality. There is also very little in the means of a 'prime directive'. So low TL worlds can and do interact with higher TL worlds.

As best I can determine, the TL of a world means nothing. It tells you what TL is "commonly available" but can average up or down by 2 TLs. Oh, and they have a starport so you can find Plasma weapons and grav tanks there too. Oh, but you can't get stuff fixed at that planet unless it is of the right TLs, nope. Not true either. Basically, TL is so vague as to mean nothing, same as every other f*cking stat I discuss on here. This aggravates Me to no end. Pop means nothing. Law Level means nothing. Size means nothing. Seriously guys?

This means sophonts from low TL worlds can work as a mechanic at the starport, even though there home is a earthen mound. This means that sophont can go off world and get educated at a subsector capital and come back to their low TL world. This means that low TL sophonts can get drafted into the Merchant Marines. This means that sophont in low TL world can be taught how a high TL system works, even if they dont interact much with them.
The Imperium has a mandate to raise the TL of its client states, so its interested and invested in do that.

Onon. The planet right next to Capital, TL-7 Class-D starport, but otherwise ripe to be a Ht In world. If they can't upgrade a world right next the capital, that they have had for over 1,000 years, then I am not sure that is actually their intent. Even in just Sylean space, you have a bunch of TL 7s 8s, some 6s. They have controlled that space longer than there has been a 3I.

If the question was really about a sheltered low TL sophont, who for whatever reason, never seen any advance piece of technology, and its all of a out of context problem.
Then the answer is, it takes a while.

I am saying how is there no rule in Traveller for attempting to use technology outside of the TL of your education? I show a laser pistol to a Roman Centurion in Traveller, and he may know how to shoot it, having seen others do it, but his Mechanic skill should have some serious penalties to it, if he wants to repair the laser pistol. Like making it an Impossible Task.

They never grow a deeper understanding how it works.
BBbut they can bbe taught how to do operations, and how do things in rhote. That doesnt require deeper understanding why its done that way.

So, in other words, they can be trained like monkeys, but not learn like humans, unless training starts in childhood or attend some kind of a school to teach the technology, in which case, they would not be a TL-1 person.

 

[agentwigggles]

The mechanic is the gm.
Consider the character and their experiences. As the player if they would know how to do it.
And then either say it's impossible or increase the target number.

As far as calling them like monkeys, I would say that it's unfair of the higher TLers to expect them to have a deeper
understanding when it was all at the start an out of context problem. That's too European colonialist for me.
Native South American thought that Spanish conquers could merge freely with their horses to be one being.
They didn't need to know that you need urine and saltpeter and nitrite to make gun powder or drop towers, to use gravity in order to make lead shot.

Pack with powerder. Pack with wad. Pack with shot. Light fuse. Aim. Click.
They definitely can learn all of that, it just takes longer because they missed out in 18-20 years of growing up with it. They need to go to secondary school to learn. Take remedial courses to advance ones.

Or they need a lot of professional experience and work with empathic and patience co workers and bosses who doesn't call them monkeys.

The tl like all the uwp is useful but the planets arent a theme park land.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The mechanic is the gm.
Consider the character and their experiences. As the player if they would know how to do it.
And then either say it's impossible or increase the target number.

As far as calling them like monkeys, I would say that it's unfair of the higher TLers to expect them to have a deeper
understanding when it was all at the start an out of context problem. That's too European colonialist for me.
Native South American thought that Spanish conquers could merge freely with their horses to be one being.
They didn't need to know that you need urine and saltpeter and nitrite to make gun powder or drop towers, to use gravity in order to make lead shot.

Sorry. When I said "like monkeys" I meant learning by rote. I apologize if I caused offense. That was totally not My intention.

Pack with powerder. Pack with wad. Pack with shot. Light fuse. Aim. Click.
They definitely can learn all of that, it just takes longer because they missed out in 18-20 years of growing up with it. They need to go to secondary school to learn. Take remedial courses to advance ones.

Or they need a lot of professional experience and work with empathic and patience co workers and bosses who doesn't call them monkeys.

The tl like all the uwp is useful but the planets arent a theme park land.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No one is born with the ability to field strip an AR15, clear minor malfunctions and the like.

It doesn't take long to teach it.

Learning the maths to understand quantum field theory and general relativity on the other hand...