Computer Tech Levels

[MasterGwydion]

Page 20 of High Guard says, "Note that the listed Tech Level of a computer is the minimum at which a given computer model is available. The operating Tech Level is that of the starship in which it is installed; therefore, ships can use software limited to the Tech Level of the ship, not the computer. For example, a TL12 trader can use TL12 software even on a Computer/5."

Why? Why pay full price for a Computer/5 at TL-12 for 30,000Cr?

Page 11 in the CSC, under Retro Tech says, "At each Tech Level above the listed optimal Tech Level, computers and electronic devices are available at half the cost and mass of the basic model. This reduction is unlimited for computers but limited to three Tech Levels for electronic equipment."

A TL-12 Computer/5 should only cost 938Cr and take up only 3.2% of the space of a normal TL-7 Computer/5

Making the computer automatically the TL of the ship at it's original price and size completely invalidates this rule from the CSC. Perhaps in the future, this rule should be removed from the CRB?

It seems like the rule in the CSC was designed to replace the rule from the CRB.

 

[Condottiere]

The technological level of the bridge trumps a lower teched computer.

And that, depends on the declared construction technological level.

Inflation ensures that nothing gets cheaper.

 

[Arkathan]

A ship's computer is distributed throughout the hull. The main expense of a cheap ship's computer is in the wiring, connections and multiple interfaces. More components, spread out and needing to talk to each other will limit the ability to reduce costs.
The HG -10%/TL rule is more in line with that implementation, although a static mainframe built into a current tech server cabinet might be more in line with the CSC implementation, depending on the intricacy of its interconnectedness.
A prison's security control system is going to follow the ship implementation. A gaming server, with a couple of whatever replaced T-3 cables will follow the CSC model.

 

[Condottiere]

Yeah, but the wiring cost is tied to the bridge, not to the computer.

And multiple bridges, means lots of crosswires.

 

[Arkathan]

The bridge, the engine room, sensors, every single jump node in the hull, the common area, life support, the weapons, doors and airlocks.
Computer size was eliminated due to being part of bridge stations and distributed throughout the hull.
Like entertainment systems, performance is at a premium. Complex distributed performance, especially so.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Nope.
Inconsistency.
Unindentured consequence.
Traveller at its finest

It would be better going back to a stand alone computer that takes up tonnage.

Scrap bandwidth since it is a dubious concept in the first place.

Computers should have three characteristics - processing power, memory, bandwidth.

And shipboard supercomputers should be slightly bigger than those needed to run Grok.

 

[Condottiere]

And, of course, your iPhone can run a starship.

 

[Arkathan]

Nope.
Inconsistency.
Unindentured consequence.
Traveller at its finest

It would be better going back to a stand alone computer that takes up tonnage.

Scrap bandwidth since it is a dubious concept in the first place.

Computers should have three characteristics - processing power, memory, bandwidth.

And shipboard supercomputers should be slightly bigger than those needed to run Grok.

One of the hardest things to remember when I was converting to MgT was the missing computer size.
I agree, and am of the opinion that those characteristics should be scalable at a cost and size based upon TL.
BUT, once you get used to it, the current HG system is fairly easy... sort of the difference between combat in Rune Quest and Warhammer.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Page 20 of High Guard says, "Note that the listed Tech Level of a computer is the minimum at which a given computer model is available. The operating Tech Level is that of the starship in which it is installed; therefore, ships can use software limited to the Tech Level of the ship, not the computer. For example, a TL12 trader can use TL12 software even on a Computer/5."

Why? Why pay full price for a Computer/5 at TL-12 for 30,000Cr?

Page 11 in the CSC, under Retro Tech says, "At each Tech Level above the listed optimal Tech Level, computers and electronic devices are available at half the cost and mass of the basic model. This reduction is unlimited for computers but limited to three Tech Levels for electronic equipment."

A TL-12 Computer/5 should only cost 938Cr and take up only 3.2% of the space of a normal TL-7 Computer/5

Making the computer automatically the TL of the ship at it's original price and size completely invalidates this rule from the CSC. Perhaps in the future, this rule should be removed from the CRB?

It seems like the rule in the CSC was designed to replace the rule from the CRB.

[HG, p20] is about computer TL availability and software TL ship's operability.
[CSC, p11] is about retro tech's computer optimal tech TLs, capped at +/-2 original TL

• Firstly, does a Transport manufacture use retro tech? Or do they ensure you travel with the latest gear?
• Rhetorically, can a portable computer or mainframe run s/w operationally to the tech level of the society? What happens if a Traveller buys a portable computer on one world, then ships out to another world with higher TL, and then buys s/w at the TL of that society?
• Isn't a TL7 computer/5 bought at a TL12 shipyard/society still is a TL7 computer?
• Availability means minimum and higher TL at which computer may be purchased at certain shipyards.
• Operability TL has to do with S/W bloat. More refined the S/W becomes, then less bloat appears in s/w package.
• Optimal tech is to do with manufacture of computer, carried out by a suitable computer corporation, which is outside scope of the shipyard. So, go ahead and combine/supersede rules if you got all sourcebooks to do with computer manufacture and starship manufacture.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And, of course, your iPhone can run a starship.

No it can't.
It couldn't even run a telephone call centre.

 

[Sigtrygg]

[HG, p20] is about COMPUTER TL availability and SOFTWARE TL ship's operability.
[CSC, p11] is about retro tech's COMPUTER optimal tech TLs, capped at +/-2 original TL

• Firstly, does a Transport manufacture use retro tech? Or do they ensure you travel with the latest gear?
• Rhetorically, can a portable computer or mainframe run s/w operationally to the tech level of the society? What happens if a Traveller buys a portable computer on one world, then ships out to another world with higher TL, and then buys s/w at the TL of that society?
• Isn't a TL7 computer/5 bought at a TL12 shipyard/society still is a TL7 computer?
• Availability means minimum and higher TL at which computer may be purchased at certain shipyards.
• Operability TL has to do with S/W bloat. More refined the S/W becomes, then less bloat appears in s/w package.
• Optimal tech is to do with manufacture of computer, carried out by a suitable computer corporation, which is outside scope of the shipyard. So, go ahead and combine/superceed rules if you got all sourcebooks to do with computer manufacture and starship manufacture.

TL : DR it is a complete shambles.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd say Moore's Law applies.

 

[Limpin Legin]

TL : DR it is a complete shambles.

Not my fault. Original source material leans on using the acronym "TL" too many times, without using a more specific evolutionary meta-language.

 

[Limpin Legin]

I'd say Moore's Law applies.

Yes, but that in isolation does not explain why retro tech is missing from HG.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, but that in isolation does not explain why retro tech is missing from HG.

Could have been cut for space or the CSC was written after HG and it was new to Traveller as of the CSC. I just think that is should have been caught in the updates.

[HG, p20] is about COMPUTER TL availability and SOFTWARE TL ship's operability.
[CSC, p11] is about retro tech's COMPUTER optimal tech TLs, capped at +/-2 original TL

You need to go back and read it again.

Page 11 states, "This reduction is unlimited for computers but limited to three Tech Levels for electronic equipment." Computers are not capped.

• Firstly, does a Transport manufacture use retro tech? Or do they ensure you travel with the latest gear?

Retrotech is the latest gear. A TL-12 Retrotech Computer/5 is a TL-12 computer that is 3% of the size and 3% of the cost of a TL-9 Computer/5. I would assume a transport manufacturer would install whatever was smallest and cheapest at the TL that is is building the ship at.

• Rhetorically, can a portable computer or mainframe run s/w operationally to the tech level of the society? What happens if a Traveller buys a portable computer on one world, then ships out to another world with higher TL, and then buys s/w at the TL of that society?

If the computer is not of a high enough TL, then it can't run the software. I thought that was already understood.

• Isn't a TL7 computer/5 bought at a TL12 shipyard/society still is a TL7 computer?

Bought, yes, but no TL-12 world manufactures TL-7 items. If the world manufactured it, then it is TL-12 or perhaps TL-11 if it is a lower tech item. They manufacture TL-12 items and retrotech (higher technology versions) Therefore no, It is a TL-12 retrotech Computer/5.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Could have been cut for space or the CSC was written after HG and it was new to Traveller as of the CSC. I just think that is should have been caught in the updates.

Could be. You are certainly closer to the source of truth than me, on that matter. However, as a referee, I would have imposed that CSC is for rules system for electronics and computer manufacture, while HG is for starship and spaceship construction. So, would have explained that electronics and computers are manufactured outside the shipyards, hence is out of scope for HG.

You need to go back and read it again.

Page 11 states, "This reduction is unlimited for computers but limited to three Tech Levels for electronic equipment." Computers are not capped.

Sorry, I forgot to mention, I don't have CSC update yet, so page 11 is actually the Ballistic Vest in my book. So, I should have quoted [HG2016, pg67].

If the computer is not of a high enough TL, then it can't run the software. I thought that was already understood.

Yes, rules-as-written I understood same as you. I was asking a rhetorical hypothetical could it be considered ...? type of question. That is, given your question about ship's computers in shipyards, could we rhetorically ask the same of portable+mainframe computers purchased in different worlds TL's to the software purchases. That would be one way of ensuring rule consistency between the rule items found in the quoted books.

Therefore no, It is a TL-12 retrotech Computer/5.

That's more lyrical than the rulebooks descriptions.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Could be. You are certainly closer to the source of truth than me, on that matter. However, as a referee, I would have imposed that CSC is for rules system for electronics and computer manufacture, while HG is for starship and spaceship construction. So, would have explained that electronics and computers are manufactured outside the shipyards, hence is out of scope for HG.

I am not aware that shipyards actually manufacture anything. As far as I am aware, all they do is assemble parts that are built in manufacturing plants.

Sorry, I forgot to mention, I don't have CSC update yet, so page 11 is actually the Ballistic Vest in my book. So, I should have quoted [HG2016, pg67].

Fair enough. lolz

 

[Terry Mixon]

Sorry, I forgot to mention, I don't have CSC update yet, so page 11 is actually the Ballistic Vest in my book. So, I should have quoted [HG2016, pg67].

Here you go.

RETROTECH
Advancing technology can render some items less expensive or sizeable. Additional capabilities are reflected in more advanced versions through gradation or replacement but some items maintain abilities in smaller and/or cheaper versions.

Retrotech applies only to computers and electronic devices. Other items, even without additional features, are addressed through gradations and/or superseding higher tech items. At each Tech Level above the listed optimal Tech Level, computers and electronic devices are available at half the cost and mass of the basic model. This reduction is unlimited for computers but limited to three Tech Levels for electronic equipment. Reductions are even more drastic for some portable computers – see page 67. Items below 0.25 kilograms are considered to have negligible mass. Note the retrotech item is considered to have been produced at its actual Tech Level; a TL15 Computer/1 will be cheap and tiny but will require TL15 parts for repair.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I am not aware that shipyards actually manufacture anything. As far as I am aware, all they do is assemble parts that are built in manufacturing plants.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[Limpin Legin]

I am not aware that shipyards actually manufacture anything. As far as I am aware, all they do is assemble parts that are built in manufacturing plants.

That's my understanding as well.

Actually, I used "manufacture" and "construction" in the appropriate contexts. For your reference:

as a referee, I would have imposed that CSC is for rules system for electronics and computer manufacture, while HG is for starship and spaceship construction.

So please credit me for having the same foresight as yourselves.