What about the SRMs ?

[Elandyll]

Hi !

HAven't played RQ for a long time (since RQ3 French version specifically) and I am very glad to see MRQ coming out. Can't wait for the Companion and the Glorantha 2nd Age previews look fantastic.

Now, one thing is "bothering" me in the new rules (I am past the whole 100%+_ skill and weapon combat tables, those can be fixed by minor house adaptations). In the Combat section, talking about the Strike Rank (now simplified to an initative system), you do indicate that a Slower weapon will affect the SR of the attacker.

Now, maybe I missed a paragraph in the rules, but nowhere did I find any system to deal with the bigger/slower weapons and the impact on speed/initiative that they have.

In effect, and if I read correctly the current rules, a GreatSword (2D8 dmg) is just as easy to handle than a 1h Light Mace (1D6) as long as you have the Str and Dex requirements covered (13/11 in the first case, 7/7 in the second).

This seems like a major departure (again, unless I have missed something) from the RQ rules and their SRM (Strike Rank Modifier).
Without going back to the same complexity, maybe we can find a good middle ground ? Because as it is, I expect players to rapidly find this out and max their dex/Str reqs, soon to see groups only equipped with Great Swords and Great Axes and fights that last the whole of 1 swing...

There's got to be a reason to use 1H + shield !
(for now I am considering removing one combat action for people using weapons of Enc 4 and above, thinking of extending that to Enc 3 and above actually).

P.S: I also noticecd in the basic rules that the Sky Bolt spell is associated to the Chaos Rune(why not Air?), while in the cult description the spell is associated with the God of Storms (Hello Orlanth), major ennemy of all things .. chaos.
Error ? Runes do not follow the same pattern as pantheons and a character associated with a pantheon ennemy of chaos could use a chaos rune without problem ?)

 

[Rurik]

Now, maybe I missed a paragraph in the rules, but nowhere did I find any system to deal with the bigger/slower weapons and the impact on speed/initiative that they have.

Weapons modifying SR was dropped from the rules at the last minute. It is mentioned in the previews, and the first scenario in S&P 35 has completely different SR values than the final rules, which have been modified for weapons.

Also, in earlier versions of RQ Reach was a major factor, longer weapons were better than shorter weapons. Weight was never a factor in determining SR.

There's got to be a reason to use 1H + shield !
(for now I am considering removing one combat action for people using weapons of Enc 4 and above, thinking of extending that to Enc 3 and above actually).

There are three good reasons to use sheilds. One is they give one free 'bonus' reaction for parrying. Two is AP. Look at the AP of non sheild weapons, they range from 2-4 - limited at best for blocking serious damage. Three is they can parry missle weapons.

Now wheather those advantages outweigh the massive damage of a greatsword or great axe is a different subject... :wink:

P.S: I also noticecd in the basic rules that the Sky Bolt spell is associated to the Chaos Rune(why not Air?), while in the cult description the spell is associated with the God of Storms (Hello Orlanth), major ennemy of all things .. chaos.
Error ? Runes do not follow the same pattern as pantheons and a character associated with a pantheon ennemy of chaos could use a chaos rune without problem ?)

Yeah, pretty messed up. I don't think the sample cults were ever supposed to be more than that - you aren't supposed to actually use them (what were you thinking?). Skybolt seems way over powered - I think that is the one area even the most die hard supporters of MRQ and die hard critics can agree on.

 

[iamtim]

Weapons modifying SR was dropped from the rules at the last minute.

That's disconcerting. I wonder why that happened?

 

[mthomason]

Weapons modifying SR was dropped from the rules at the last minute.

That's disconcerting. I wonder why that happened?

List of possible responses to this one.

(no offence intended to anyone, btw, this is just for fun. No, really it is )

<Neg> Because they didn't check or playtest it properly.
<Whiner> Yeah, Mongoose, why didn't you? I demand a fix for this and I want it in the PDF now. In fact no, I want the whole book reprinted.
<Stirrer> I'll go start a poll on whether this should be in or not.
<Fanboy> Because they realised the idea sucked and dropped it, now shut up and like it the way it is!
<Neutral Poster> You could always house rule it if you wanted, then those that don't want the complexity don't have to have it.
<Mongoose Rep> We actually dropped this to keep the basic rules simple, but we'll be putting an alternative with SR modifiers in the next issue of S&P!
<Third-party Publisher> We'll be adding this in our new product, available from http:....
<Atgxtg> Here's my modified table that fixes it.

 

[iamtim]

<Neg> Because they didn't check or playtest it properly.
<Whiner> Yeah, Mongoose, why didn't you? I demand a fix for this and I want it in the PDF now. In fact no, I want the whole book reprinted.
<Stirrer> I'll go start a poll on whether this should be in or not.
<Fanboy> Because they realised the idea sucked and dropped it, now shut up and like it the way it is!
<Neutral Poster> You could always house rule it if you wanted, then those that don't want the complexity don't have to have it.
<Mongoose Rep> We actually dropped this to keep the basic rules simple, but we'll be putting an alternative with SR modifiers in the next issue of S&P!
<Third-party Publisher> We'll be adding this in our new product, available from http:....
<Atgxtg> Here's my modified table that fixes it.

HAHA!

Now THAT'S funny.

And the last line is SO fitting.

 

[Elandyll]

About the Cult in the base rules, wasn't really going to try to use it, just confused me as per how Cults in general would regard Runes and their use.

Even though the Basic rules aren't supposed to be "Glorantha-bound", we should know if Runes are considered "utilities" (everything goes, even the use of a Light Rune by an Troll or a Chaos Rune by an Orlanthi) or also bound to their respective pantheons...

As per the SRM in RQIII, you are right, it was mostly the length of a weapon that was playing a role (the most cumbersome longspear having a SRM of 0!), the weight of the weapons, though supposedly incorporated (Great sword SRM=1 - reminder: in RQ3 the lower the SR- the better) is not playing much of a role.

Just seems weird to me that a 2H sword or Halberd can be wiffed around at the same speed than a dagger, that is all
(but then again, I mostly play MMORPGs these days, and numbers like Speed/DPS might have become too important to me hehe).

P.S: Skybolt, overpowered ? 3D6 dmg that ignores armor ? Naaah

 

[Enpeze]

As per the SRM in RQIII, you are right, it was mostly the length of a weapon that was playing a role (the most cumbersome longspear having a SRM of 0!), the weight of the weapons, though supposedly incorporated (Great sword SRM=1 - reminder: in RQ3 the lower the SR- the better) is not playing much of a role.

The weight of the weapons played surely a role. But more important is the fact that 2H weapons if used properly give a tremendous reach advantage. And this is far more worth than the weight disadvantage. Just watch medieval reenactment landsknechts wielding 2H swords in a correct way. Then you will see it. RQ3 developers has been reenactors. So they knew the way 2H weapons has been used in the past.

P.S: Skybolt, overpowered ? 3D6 dmg that ignores armor ? Naaah

Not overpowered. Insane. At least if you dont mind to incorporate the chaos rune, that is.

 

[Elandyll]

As per the SRM in RQIII, you are right, it was mostly the length of a weapon that was playing a role (the most cumbersome longspear having a SRM of 0!), the weight of the weapons, though supposedly incorporated (Great sword SRM=1 - reminder: in RQ3 the lower the SR- the better) is not playing much of a role.

The weight of the weapons played surely a role. But more important is the fact that 2H weapons if used properly give a tremendous reach advantage. And this is far more worth than the weight disadvantage. Just watch medieval reenactment landsknechts wielding 2H swords in a correct way. Then you will see it. RQ3 developers has been reenactors. So they knew the way 2H weapons has been used in the past.

P.S: Skybolt, overpowered ? 3D6 dmg that ignores armor ? Naaah

Not overpowered. Insane. At least if you dont mind to incorporate the chaos rune, that is.

For the sake of discussion, let's take the Longspear as an example.

You are of course right about the reach of such weapons... But what if the opponent has a shortsword and gets into the range of that weapon ? You are now (with a longspear) at a major disadvantage
In reality, you would have to drop that weapon to draw a sword...

For massive 2H swords/axes, they do draw amazing blows, but once the swing has been made, the recovering takes a whole lot more time than with a shortsword or dagger per example.

As it is, we do not have any penalty (not even Enc, only the armor enc is penalyzing) for large cumbersome weapons

I think I'll try my system(removing a CA for weapons with Enc 3 and above, unless your strength is 17 and above, maybe) when I have a chance, and am in fact eagerly awaiting for the companion and see how SR will be handled in those cases.

 

[Ahokko]

mthomason, that was a GOOD ONE!

We want more, we want more!

 

[DerLautrer]

I use this rule in my group for SR:

SR = (INT + DEX) /2 - (ENC of Weapon)*

* when 2 weapons then the higher ENC counts

 

[Exubae]

Still find it strange that Size was not included in SR, you would have thought reach would have played an important part possibly more so than INT which would be more involved in seeing and opening for a strike.

Paul

 

[atgxtg]

Well, if someone wanted to add the Weapon and SIZ SR modfiers back into MRQ a reasonably accurate approximteion would be:

1) Add SIZ into the SR formula. Possible either replaceing INT in the averageing formula or Just use DEX+SIZ.

2) For each weapon check the old lenth/reach SR mod, subtract from 4, and multiply by 5.:

SR 0 (2+m)= +20
SR 1 (1.5-1.9m)=+15
SR 2 (1-1.4m)= +10
SR 3 (.5-.9m)=+5
SR 4 (up to .4m)=+0


Note that for those who want even more precise values for weapons, the weapon SR mod could be length(m) x10. So a 31 inch/0.8m broad sword (.76m) would have a weapon SRM of +7.


SO a guy with DEX 14, SIZ 13 wielding a 2m long spear (a pike) would roll 1D10+47 (14 DEX+13+SIZ+20) for SR.

Note that with this method a guy with a shortsword would need to have phenomenal DEX and SIZ to stand much of a chance of beating the pikeman to the first strike.

Not that I see a problem with that. Those who want ore randomness could simply change from a D10 to a D20.

And those who want "Old school" style could just drop the die roll all together. The final SRs would work fairly close to RQ2/3.

 

[mthomason]

Well, if someone wanted to add the Weapon and SIZ SR modfiers back into MRQ a reasonably accurate approximteion would be:

See, I told you...

 

[atgxtg]

Well, if someone wanted to add the Weapon and SIZ SR modfiers back into MRQ a reasonably accurate approximteion would be:

See, I told you...

Why not? :lol:


If someone wants it, here it is, and if they don't they are not forced into using it. Besides, I think it helps to illustrate why the mods weren't used with the intiative die.

 

[mthomason]

Oh, I know. I just knew you would come up with a solution though

 

[Rurik]

ATGXTG= Add to The Game eXtend The Game.

 

[iamtim]

ATGXTG= Add to The Game eXtend The Game.

APPEND the game...

 

[Rurik]

ATGXTG= Add to The Game eXtend The Game.

APPEND the game...

I like.

Append The Game Xtend The Game

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, I know. I just knew you would come up with a solution though

Troubleshooter. It's my nature. I've finagled, shoehorned and mated more things into game systems than I can probably recall. Comes from running those non-mainstream RPGs that didn't have sourcebooks and "complete guides" on everything from arrows to lavatory paper.

<OLD GAMER MODE ON> "Back in my day, sonny. We had to make up our own rules for things. Uphill, both ways. We only had one copy of the rule book, and our D20s were only numbered one to ten and we had to use them as percentiles too! We had to write up all our own settings, monsters, spells, you name it. And we didn't have any fancy refernce books, noo. We had to hunt down out own orcs and dragons and measure 'em to make sure we got the size right. Now the book tells you that the male elephants and dragons are larger, but we had to find out the old fashioned way! Prior to the pocket calculator we had to send out to NASA to calculate the weekly XP awards. And everyone though we was part of some sicko cult that ran around in the sewers and worshipped the Devil. All the newwbies got it too easy!" :evil: :evil: <OLD GAMER MODE OFF>

:wink: :roll:

Boy, that was a fun rant.

 

[Rurik]

Running around in the sewers and worshipping the devil were the best parts of gaming back in the day!

Other than, of course, the sacrifices.