Negative DM from being hit

[Galen]

Hi All,

while reading the Field Catalogue I found an example where someone got a negative DM from being hit. In this case it was a total of -5 (-2 from being hit, -3 from 3 full sets of 3 damage). So long so good. But where, in which book and page, can I find this rule? I looked in the Core Rules Combat Chapter, tried to find it in the Field Catalogue, in the Traveller Companion. Am I looking in the wrong books? Did I overread it multiple times? Or am I completely blind? xD

Thanks in advance

 

[Terry Mixon]

Hi All,

while reading the Field Catalogue I found an example where someone got a negative DM from being hit. In this case it was a total of -5 (-2 from being hit, -3 from 3 full sets of 3 damage). So long so good. But where, in which book and page, can I find this rule? I looked in the Core Rules Combat Chapter, tried to find it in the Field Catalogue, in the Traveller Companion. Am I looking in the wrong books? Did I overread it multiple times? Or am I completely blind? xD

Thanks in advance

I’m convinced that whoever wrote that supplement had never bothered to read the rules and just made things up. Personally, I’d ignore it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think Terry has hit the nail on the head, and it is a recurring theme.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

So where are the guidelines, which book explains them?

 

[Condottiere]

They become guidelines, when you can't reconcile them with gut instinct.

 

[Limpin Legin]

So long so good. But where, in which book and page, can I find this rule?

Do you mean Knockdown (pg 22, Field Guide)?

Pg 22:

For example, a human Traveller is hit by a pellet-firing shotgun. Their flak jacket is treated as Protection +15 against this weapon, which has the Lo-Pen 3 trait. Damage rolled is 16 points, of which only 1 gets through the armour. However, the impact is sufficient to potentially cause a knockdown. To avoid this the Traveller must make a Routine (6+) STR check. Their STR DM is +1, but they suffer DM-1 for the one point of damage over their knockdown threshold and DM-3 for the shotgun’s Lo-Pen rating. The Traveller rolls 8 on the dice, with a total DM-3. The Effect of the check is -1, which is insufficient to avoid a knockdown. A rifle bullet doing the same amount of damage would have penetrated the armour and done more actual harm to the Traveller, but probably not applied a knockdown.

 

[Galen]

Do you mean Knockdown (pg 22, Field Guide)?

Pg 22:

The example I meant is from the Quickdraw Rule (p. 21):

For example, a Traveller acting as point for a patrol turns a corner and finds herself facing a hostile militiaman going the other way. The Traveller has a short stockless shotgun ready for just such a close encounter, but rolls a disastrous 2 on 2D. Even with her DEX modifier and Gun Combat skill she has a total of Quickdraw 5, increased to 9 because her weapon is ideal for such situations. The gunman is armed with a submachinegun, but it is slung. He rolls a rather better 6, modified to 8 by his DEX and Gun Combat skill. The submachinegun grants DM+2, raising the total to Quickdraw 10, which would normally be sufficient to outdraw the Traveller. However, the gunman has to unsling his weapon (DM-2) and chamber a round (DM-2) before firing. He is on a total of Quickdraw 6 and is still readying his weapon when he is hit. His body armour stops some of the blast but he takes 10 damage. The gunman then looses a burst, but suffers DM-5 (-2 for being hit, -3 more for three full sets of 3 points of damage). Hopefully this is enough to throw off his aim.

That reads quite different from the Knockdown rule.

Well I don't even want to question this "unsling" and "chamber a round" DM. But a rule for a penalty would totally make sense. Getting hit by a 20mm round, even if it does not do any significant damage, would influence your focus in one way or another.
I know the Traveller Combat rules (on foot) are simple compared to other pen & paper systems. But something like this wouldn't have suprised me.

 

[Grognardia]

Treat everything in the Field Guide as the insane fever dream of a group of rabid badgers. That should put you in the right mindset.

 

[Sigtrygg]

They become guidelines, when you can't reconcile them with gut instinct.

No, I mean where are the guidelines at all. Where are these rules presented as even guidelines.

 

[Arkathan]

You know a construction ruleset is messed up when NO ONE has been able to spreadsheet the whole set.

 

[Condottiere]

While I don't always agree with spacecraft (and associated spacestation) design mechanisms, I understand them, and try to work with them.

Vehicles, I pretty much came to the conclusion that they were implausible, and unworkable.

Still trying to work out Robots.

I was enthusiastic for firearms, but when I couldn't reverse engineer the advanced combat rifle, the whole thing became more guidelines, since I still needed some framework for giving a more Solomani polish to them.

 

[Arkathan]

While I don't always agree with spacecraft (and associated spacestation) design mechanisms, I understand them, and try to work with them.

Vehicles, I pretty much came to the conclusion that they were implausible, and unworkable.

Still trying to work out Robots.

I was enthusiastic for firearms, but when I couldn't reverse engineer the advanced combat rifle, the whole thing became more guidelines, since I still needed some framework for giving a more Solomani polish to them.

Everything but the firearms works and can be done in one spreadsheet (each), making creation a breeze. My medic/roboticist player uses Geir's free sheet extensively.
I made a Kel-Tec KSG-DM Shotgun three years ago because one of my characters wanted one, and ever since, there have been no custom weapons.

 

[Condottiere]

With firearms, it tends to be hit or miss.

 

[rinku]

I don't have the field guide, but it *sounds* like the example is referring to modifiers to whatever Quick Draw rule the Field Guide presents.

It's not impossible they were left out in the editing process, so if there's a Field Guide errata that might explain them?

For me, the surprise and initiative rules are more than enough for this purpose. If you have an actual high noon showdown with guns holstered, that's an opposed Gun Combat DEX test, maybe with situational modifiers or involving boons and banes.

 

[Galen]

I'm also used to the design mechanism of weapons from field catalogue. I already designed some cool weapons with it.

BUT I also understand the said issues. It is a good idea but should have needed a bit more polishing. About all these additional rules ... well yeah it IS said that they are all meant to be optional. But a lot of them seem like not fully thought through.

Quickdraw could have been just an Initiative modifier for example.
The recoil mechanic seems a bit useless because we already have bulky and very bulky. Nontheless I like the idea, because handling a weapon in full auto is more a thing of training, not of pure strength (even though it helps to have some muscles ). But the implementation is ... discussable.
I really like the penetration mechanic because that is how armor penetration works. Having a better penetration means less damage to the person when the bullet comes through.

I have to agree with the people answering my post that all this is more like a suggestion (or like written in the rules optional). As the GM (or referee) of my group I tend to use not all of them and some I have modified a bit.

One last thing is the topic of reengineering weapons from standard rules. You can rebuild them with the rules, but you don't get the complete same characteristics. Take the Autopistol for example. With the design set of field catalogue you can build a semi-automatic handgun with medium handgun calibre (3D-3), 15 Rounds mag and range 10m. It is a bit more expensive but as referee you can easily adjust that. The weight is 1.16kg, also easy to adjust. So the thing is: you got Recoil 1 and Penetration -1 what results in Lo-Pen 2.
Lets look at this:
Recoil 1, yeah ... no! Controlling a 9mm Semi-Automatic Pistol does not require to be a trained shooter (Gun Combat 1). So just ignore it (your right as a referee), or give your Autopistol a Recoil reduction which would result in a modified Damage of 3D-4. Not too unrealistic if you ask me if we take a look at same level armor.
Lo-Pen 2: Yes! (In my opinion) Why: Again we look at the armors. We are talking about a 9mm Pistol. The lower TL Flak Jacket (so more or less like a common kevlar vest in the real world) has protection +3. If you shoot with a 9mm Pistol at a moderate Kevlar Vest the Vest will stop the Bullet in a lot of cases. With protection +3 and 3D-3 damage it goes through the most time though a rolled 6 with 3D is a really bad result. With Lo-Pen 2 you need at least a rolled 9 what is still not a good result with 3D. Yes of course it is a game. Usually we don't play with hit zones and the vest just protects your torso. And getting 2 or 3 damage after armor could also just be a bruise and not a penetrated vest. Long story short: in my opinion Lo-Pen 2 for 9mm Pistols isn't that implausible.

Another example could be the submachinegun, but I will make this short: Since I play traveller (what is way longer than I'm active in this forum ) I was bothering with the fact that the submachinegun does the same damage as an assault rilfe and not the same damage than a Pistol.

In the end this is the problem. That you got weapons out of the design rules that are not totally fitting between the standard ones, as long as you don't just bend the rules a bit in the end. I understand that and I agree with that. It would have been cool if they had created a List of the standard weapons rebuild with field catalogue and added that list to the book (I did ask them for such a list btw. ). Ok they did not, maybe we will get one at some point, I don't know.

My personal solution is to code a tool to create weapons with the field catalogue rules and recreate all the standard weapons with it to see if I'm happy with the result and if not just bending it a bit. Also I'm not using all the additional rules or some we altered in a way we agree with. I always loved to create Ships, Equipment, Weapons and so on in Traveller and other Pen&Paper systems and I just want that design rules going to work!

(No surprise: I'm not a native english speaker. So sorry for some weird written parts in this long wall of text. Please forgive me! )