Warhammer Conversion

[phantomdoodler]

Apart from that:
The wizard only using common magic?
Warhammer magic is hellishly deadly. And it is it hellishly often. I'd much suggest using sorcery instead. Since it much better captures the academic feel, and the many variables that a wizard can change.
I mean, sure hedge wizards and witches would be using common magic. But a wizard lord from the college of light should be using sorcery.

As I mentioned at the start of my post, Colour Magic is represented by Sorcery. However, starting players following a Wizard profession get Common Magic for free - thats their petty spells. If they decide to spend 20 points from their starting 250 points on Sorcery (appropriate Order) and Manipulation, then they are no longer apprentices and fully blown wizards. Since these greater spells rely on joining an order of magic, then a beginning character will unlikely start with Sorcery anyway. They will need at least Status 1. A character without order status but Sorcery and Manipulation is probably more likely to be a Warlock.

I may just call the Wizard profession an Apprentice Wizard, and offer a Warlock, in place of the Sorcerer. Warlocks stat more powerful but are despised, and routinely burned at stakes....

 

[phantomdoodler]

Movement: 8 metres - Halflings have the same movement as humans in all editions of warhammer.

Ok, I have based all the halfling stats from Monsters of legend, so didnt feel the need to tweak these - they seem pretty spot on to me. And in 1st edition Warhammer, Halflings start with d2+2 Movement, the same as Dwarfs. I=This may be different in wfb, but i have stuck to wfrp for all stats. For instance, high elves dont have a T3 "cap" The are no less than tough than humans, but they do have less wounds,hence the slightly lower SIZ. Regarding Halflings, they have always had lower STR, for all editions, and I dont intend to beef them up here. They are quite simply not designed for combat so will always be pretty useless in a fight. Its probably why they were scandalously dropped as a playable race in 3rd ed wfrp.

 

[Da Boss]

The problem here is that this makes them "mostly better" than humans. While some groups wont have problems with this, it seems silly IMO. Humans should have their points as well. Which is why I'm toying with giving humans +6 charisma in settings where other fantasy races are common. This represents the fact that humans learn quickly from their mistake, and that other races hold few(er) prejudices against them.

Ah this where I disagree completely - its a bit like playing in Middle Earth and trying to balance the races - they are not balanced - Elves and Dwarves are just better - now its well worth putitng in advice or having non human races as advanced options but to introduce D+D style balancing factors is not my scene. Same issue with Melniboneans in Stormbringer/Elric.

re the T3 in WFB - IMO thats a game points balance thing (and a new one)........and its a decision as to whether this is wanted in the roleplaying version. In the end really a descison for the author

thoughts on your stats

High Elves:
STR: 3d6 (11) - Elves in warhammer are just as strong as humans.
Agreed
CON: 2D6+3 (10) - The average elf in warhammer is just as tough as the average human, but humans have a much higher upper limit.
Disagree - its only in the WFB and only the most recent edition this is the case -I would still favour having 3d6
SIZ: 2D6+4 (11) - Elves might be tall, but they are also thin and fragile.
arguable but ok
INT: 3D6+4 (15) - High elves are more intelligent than their lesser brethren.
What might be better is to have a higher upper limit on Intelligence stat so have 2D6+6 INT but increase the maxium to reflect that fact that Elves learn consdierably more over their very long lives?
POW: 3D6+3 (14) - High elves are better magicians than everyone else.
I'd go with my original stats
DEX: 3D6+4 (15) - Elves are dextrous.
Agreed but as aboveCHA: 2D6+2 (9) - While Charismatic, High elves aren't prone to letting lesser races learn from them, they are aloof so they won't likely take suggestions on how to increase their skills from others.
Its easier and arguably more realistic to have a modifer intereacting with non High Elves?

 

[Mixster]

Its easier and arguably more realistic to have a modifer intereacting with non High Elves?

Absolutely not. Charisma gives improvement rolls, so hitting elves in this area makes them balanced.

Sure you might not want to balance your races. Offering people a choice of race where some are obviously better is sort of silly. At least in my book.

 

[phantomdoodler]

I dont think balance is that important to me anymore. Once upon a time, i had players who would mini max, but these days my players are interested purely in roleplaying. The more choice of interesting characters they get to play, all the better. They wouldnt look at an Ogre and go Yep, thats more points so I am playing an Ogre again. They would just as likely choose a halfling if thats the kind of character they wanted. And as had been seen before, the gm can always penalize such uber characters in play by roleplaying npcs to suit. So the reaction to a human character would be different from an Ogre barging into the bar. In 1st ed warhammer, elves were much more powerful than halflings, but the players realised the scarcity of the elven races and generally went to dwarfs, humans and halflings. They are actually a lot more fun to roleplay - Elves being rather arrogant and alloof can be a little dull.

 

[Mixster]

I dont think balance is that important to me anymore. Once upon a time, i had players who would mini max, but these days my players are interested purely in roleplaying. The more choice of interesting characters they get to play, all the better. They wouldnt look at an Ogre and go Yep, thats more points so I am playing an Ogre again. They would just as likely choose a halfling if thats the kind of character they wanted. And as had been seen before, the gm can always penalize such uber characters in play by roleplaying npcs to suit. So the reaction to a human character would be different from an Ogre barging into the bar. In 1st ed warhammer, elves were much more powerful than halflings, but the players realised the scarcity of the elven races and generally went to dwarfs, humans and halflings. They are actually a lot more fun to roleplay - Elves being rather arrogant and alloof can be a little dull.

What if say, there was a character who didn't want to play a halfling rogue. Because frankly, the theme has been done true and dry for, well, forever.
What if he instead wanted to be a noble halfling, fighting the fights straight up with a sword and bow. Like some warhammer halflings do.
Whatever mister halfling does, his damage bonus is around -1d4, meaning almost any weapon he wields is meaningless against leather armour. Why is this?
So if 2 or 3 players decide they want to play halflings, because, well, halflings are fun. The entire party will almost certainly die from the first fight they get in (yeah they might be able to hide through a few, but then apparently they have to stick to being rogues because they are halflings).

Giving some races way higher or way lower stats make them play certain niche roles all the time, which is IMO one of the dullest fantasy views ever, and one that the warhammer world has never really be into. There's agile dwarves, fighting halfling cooks, Orc Crossbowmen, naked women and everything fighting guys with guns and guys mounted on plate armour against vikings.
The stats pretty much need to accomodate for every option, the races in the warhammer world aren't caricatures, they are actually able to be anything they want. But if you make stats that make all elves have 17 POW then they are pretty much just better magicians than they are fighters, and that seems silly.

 

[phantomdoodler]

Do you consider combat to be vital in any roleplaying game? Certainly not in my games. How many fights does Frodo and Sam get into in LOTR? Not that many. They avoid a few though. In an all halfling noble campaign, and i love the sound of that, its all about intrigue, roleplaying and who you know. If i then turned it into a slugfest, my players would feel rightly annoyed.

I think though, that the problem you highlight is not about how strong a Halfling is, but actually the system itself. The warhammer 1st or 2nd ed system would allow a halfling with inferior strength, to kill an Ogre in one blow, given enough luck. Legend seems a little more realistic, so smaller heroes are unlikely to succeed in this way. Yes a typical Halfling would inflict 1d8 -1d4 with a shortsword, which admittedly is rubbish. I dont think the issue here is making the halfling bigger and stronger. I think it may be worth thinking about dropping the Damage penalty in Warhammer, or some other means of giving small guys a chance. For example:

Ulrics Fury: If you roll the maximum rating on one or more of your weapon damage dice, you must make an additonal attack roll. If you succeed, you may roll an additional die of the same type, and add it to the total. If subsequent dice rolled also get the max value, roll the die type again and add.

For example, Ludo the Halfling has just hit with his trusty sling, which has a damage of 1D6 -1D4. He manages to roll a 6, so makes a second attack roll which he succeeds at. He rolls another d6, getting a 4. He rolls a 2 for his damage penalty for a net result of 8 damage.

 

[phantomdoodler]

The other thing to bear in mind, regarding stats, is that they dont really effect skills too much. If you wanted to create an Agile Dwarf, with high Acrobatics or Evade, you could easily. Having 5 DEX as oppose to 15 would at most be a difference of 20% and since you start with 250 points to spare, not impossible to make for. A POW 17 Elf would obviously excel at magic (well they are a very magical race), but why couldnt you play a very lucky, willful gambler? Or scholar? I am pretty sure most players have an idea what type of character they wish to play, and not just say - oh i guess i have to be a warrior or thief. Non-human races in fantasy or sci fi games are always caricatures. War-like Klingons, dour Dwarves, logical Vulcans, roguish halflings. These characters often break out of their conditioning despite their gifts in other areas. So why not play a Dwarf love poet. Hell, I bet he wouldnt have many critics, especially if he punched then across the room. Whatabout a swashbuckling halfling?. Ok, so he is unlikely to kill most things, but that doesnt stop him trying, probably with hilarious consequences.....

 

[Redcrow]

WFRP also had Fate Points and I believe that Elves receive fewer starting Fate Points than Humans as a way to help balance the races a little. Given how deadly WFRP can be and how difficult acquiring can be that 1 extra Fate Point could potentially be quite valuable.

Also, something mentioned sort of off-handedly in the fluff but never really reflected in the rules was the idea that because Elves are such a long-lived race they tend to dabble in many different areas in their early years and aren't as focused as shorter-lived races like Humans. This could be reflected by limiting the maximum amount of bonus starting points Elf characters can place into skills. That would tend to make starting Elves more diverse in their skills but perhaps a bit less focused than other races without diminishing the 'potential' that older more advanced Elves would still be more skilled than the shorter-lived races.

 

[Dan True]

Also, something mentioned sort of off-handedly in the fluff but never really reflected in the rules was the idea that because Elves are such a long-lived race they tend to dabble in many different areas in their early years and aren't as focused as shorter-lived races like Humans. This could be reflected by limiting the maximum amount of bonus starting points Elf characters can place into skills. That would tend to make starting Elves more diverse in their skills but perhaps a bit less focused than other races without diminishing the 'potential' that older more advanced Elves would still be more skilled than the shorter-lived races.

But, isn't it also warhammer fluff that elves, because they live so long lives, adhere to higher standards and thus spend long times perfecting their chosen skills? That most elves who choose a profession spend 50 or 100 years learning it before calling themselves educated in the field?

- Dan

 

[Redcrow]

But, isn't it also warhammer fluff that elves, because they live so long lives, adhere to higher standards and thus spend long times perfecting their chosen skills? That most elves who choose a profession spend 50 or 100 years learning it before calling themselves educated in the field?

Absolutely. But it could be argued that starting Elf characters have just begun that 50 or 100 years of learning which is why I mentioned that the 'potential' for Elves to eventually surpass the skills of shorter-lived races is still there, but that perhaps starting characters have just finished their years of dabbling in different areas.

 

[Da Boss]

Its easier and arguably more realistic to have a modifer intereacting with non High Elves?

Absolutely not. Charisma gives improvement rolls, so hitting elves in this area makes them balanced.

Sure you might not want to balance your races. Offering people a choice of race where some are obviously better is sort of silly. At least in my book.

I prefer to make a more realistic and logical idea than try and make everything artifically balanced...........whihc to me is much more "silly".

As I said - if its a big issue then all you do is say that playing non human races is an advanced option and only by GM approval...

Giving some races way higher or way lower stats make them play certain niche roles all the time, which is IMO one of the dullest fantasy views ever, and one that the warhammer world has never really be into. There's agile dwarves, fighting halfling cooks, Orc Crossbowmen, naked women and everything fighting guys with guns and guys mounted on plate armour against vikings

Its only an issue if you have to be trapped in to the min-max syndrome - with eh proposed stats an Elf player can play anything he or she wants - but sure if you have to choose the "best" option you might choose a mage - and as a magical race how is that "silly"?

The only way you get trapped into the niche views as you suggest is if you do it yourself...............

IMO The stats don't make you do anything - It is your choice how much you limit yourself by merely trying to get the "best" build. Balance is not something you have to force on people.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Whatever mister halfling does, his damage bonus is around -1d4, meaning almost any weapon he wields is meaningless against leather armour. Why is this?
So if 2 or 3 players decide they want to play halflings, because, well, halflings are fun. The entire party will almost certainly die from the first fight they get in (yeah they might be able to hide through a few, but then apparently they have to stick to being rogues because they are halflings).

Well if a party of halflings go toe to toe with heavily armoured foes, they are likely to end up dead. However Legend offers the perfect solution to this in it's Combat Manoeuvre rules. The halflings are best advised to gang up on their foes, giving them a net Combat Action advantage, which means they can make unopposed attacks garnering Combat Manoeuvres which allow them to trip and bypass armour... (in earlier versions, and other games, one might feel that you could safely ignore the halflings attacks, relying on your armour and their penalty to protect you, using all you actions to attack. A much riskier proposition in MRQ2/Legend

 

[GJD]

The big difference that balaced out the races in WFRP was the fate points. Combat could be deadly (unless you were the naked Dwarf) and fate points were an important part of player survivability.

In my opinion races should be balanced for the purposes of character creation. Whilst Elves as a whole might "better" than humans, I don't think an Elf PC should have any overall advantage over a human PC. My feelng was always that any elf that adventured with humans had to be an "imperial elf" and so through interaction with humans ad disconnection from more traditional elven culture and practices had lost the levels of innate advantages that NPC high or wood elves had. YUMV, of course.

G.

 

[DamonJynx]

I'm not overly familiar with WHFRP in general having only played a small amount of 2nd Ed. Regarding the issue of balancing races; crap on that.

As a GM it is your right to limit the racial choices in a game and impose any and all restrictions you feel appropriate to the setting.

Playing non-human races in humanocentric realities should be challenge and penalty enough.

 

[Mixster]

probably with hilarious consequences.....

Yeah character dead has always made me chuckle.

But, isn't it also warhammer fluff that elves, because they live so long lives, adhere to higher standards and thus spend long times perfecting their chosen skills? That most elves who choose a profession spend 50 or 100 years learning it before calling themselves educated in the field?

Absolutely. But it could be argued that starting Elf characters have just begun that 50 or 100 years of learning which is why I mentioned that the 'potential' for Elves to eventually surpass the skills of shorter-lived races is still there, but that perhaps starting characters have just finished their years of dabbling in different areas.

Yeah, seems like they learn slower, which could be reflected by a lower charisma.
Weird.

As I said - if its a big issue then all you do is say that playing non human races is an option only players who are good friends of the GM can do, but first timers have to stick with a human...

Fixed that for you.

 

[phantomdoodler]

probably with hilarious consequences.....

Yeah character dead has always made me chuckle.

As I said - if its a big issue then all you do is say that playing non human races is an option only players who are good friends of the GM can do, but first timers have to stick with a human...

Fixed that for you.

Well to point 1, I like to Gm games where humour is pretty important, and I enjoy my players acting and having a good time. Golden rule for me is that I would never just kill them off from an enemies attack, unless they really did do something suicidal. So if I had a halfling acting like a swashbuckler leaping around and challenging dangerous foes, I would be lenient, no matter what system I was playing in. Maybe the npc would look bemused and ignore them, or they would get beaten up, but nothing too serious. If i was going to get mechanical about it, I would give players fate points exactly as WFRP, so they have a chance to cheat death from time to time. My gamers share the same thinking. I once played a squirrel swashbuckler who challenged a demon for duel. I lived, and of course didnt win the duel, and we all had a blast in the hilarity of the situation. Still thats how i roll, and thats reflected in the fact I am perfectly happy for players to choose races that make them crap in combat. If the game was about combat, i wouldnt offer those races.

As to point 2, being fixed is in the eye of the beholder. If this works for you, then great.

 

[Da Boss]

Sooo how goes the conversion - do you think the Elric Rune magic could work for Dwarves?