Vilmirian Navy

[tarkhan bey]

OK, so I have two plot arcs fleshed out for my characters and am now working on the third. Galvan Tarnak has spent time among the privateers of Vilmir and I started to think about what they would be like. I am considering that Vilmir is a bit like Inquistion Spain but that the Vilmirian privateers might be more like Elizabethan sea hawks. Then I thought if that was the case then the privateers might actually be the Vilmirian navy much as those same sea hawks were Elizabeth's Royal navy. What do you all think? A professional navy in Vilmir or just privateers and gentlemen adventurers?
Galvan has discovered the secret of the Sea Horse flags and I can read his players mind. I know that he is already thinking of how to sail a fleet of privateers right into Ryfel's harbour. I just can't wait until this next session when he discovers the existence of the Pan Tangian tribute fleet.

 

[havercake lad]

I would imagine that an element of Vilmir's navy is constantly involved in pirateering using ships that are 'long and slim and built for speed rather than battle, since they were for coast-raiding and trading.
King Naclon is Lord of a fleet which , with other 'Sea Lords' , 'ravage the coasts of a score of lesser nations'. The nation's sailors are possibly inferior to ones from the Isle of the Purple Towns if Smiorgan's assessment of schooner crew as a 'lazy lot' is taken as accurate and a reasonable representation of their compatriotes.

At some time just before of after Elric IIIs succesion to the Ruby throne a fleet of 'Vilmirian pirates' is destroyed by some of Imrryr's dragons. Elric himself encounters pirates from this region during the early parts of his self exile.

'He [Elric] used the battle bravado he had learned from the pirates of the Vilmirian Straits.'

I would imagine that a lawless, outlaw pirate fleet exists besides Vilmir's navy of warships and privateers. Displays of showing rage and boasting would seem to be distinctive techniques used by the pirates.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Thanks for your thoughts Havercake. Your opinion is that there is a naval fleet as well as the privateers and it does seem to be backed up by the quotations from 'The Dreaming City'.
I think that I'll probably go with the idea that certain Captains are officers in the Vilmirian Royal fleet as well as being privateers.
Thinking about that tale has made me consider another notion to throw out to you and any others who are interested.
The fleet that attacks Imryyr consists of the small Coastal raiders mentioned above with a core of several larger vessels. MM says that each carries 16 rower/warriors and that there are 'half a thousand' of them. I would estimate that the attacking force numbered between 8-9000 men, a good sized force.
I was then thinking about the Golden Battle Barges. As the reavers depart the sacked city, 30(or was it 40) battle barges ambush them. Based on the traditional game view of one of these vessels, that amounts to at least 4000 marines, a similar number of sailors and officers as well as tens of thousands of slaves.
1) What is MM's knowledge of ancient fighting ships? At one point he describes them as having four or five banks of oars. Could he perhaps have been envisioning something more in line with quadremes and quiqueremes?
2) If we accept the absolutely vast size of these vessels, where do the crew and slaves come from? Melniboneans are in terminal state of ennui. Are there vast numbers of half melniboneans who provide the sailors and marines whilst pure bloods provide the officer class?
3) If we stick with the notion that melniboneans would not arm large numbers of their slaves and that all their soldiers, marines and sailors (except the silent guard) are pureblooded then Immryr's population is in the millions. Hardly in decline compared to the populations of the YK. :?

 

[Loz]

Thanks for your thoughts Havercake. Your opinion is that there is a naval fleet as well as the privateers and it does seem to be backed up by the quotations from 'The Dreaming City'.
I think that I'll probably go with the idea that certain Captains are officers in the Vilmirian Royal fleet as well as being privateers.
Thinking about that tale has made me consider another notion to throw out to you and any others who are interested.
The fleet that attacks Imryyr consists of the small Coastal raiders mentioned above with a core of several larger vessels. MM says that each carries 16 rower/warriors and that there are 'half a thousand' of them. I would estimate that the attacking force numbered between 8-9000 men, a good sized force.
I was then thinking about the Golden Battle Barges. As the reavers depart the sacked city, 30(or was it 40) battle barges ambush them. Based on the traditional game view of one of these vessels, that amounts to at least 4000 marines, a similar number of sailors and officers as well as tens of thousands of slaves.
1) What is MM's knowledge of ancient fighting ships? At one point he describes them as having four or five banks of oars. Could he perhaps have been envisioning something more in line with quadremes and quiqueremes?
2) If we accept the absolutely vast size of these vessels, where do the crew and slaves come from? Melniboneans are in terminal state of ennui. Are there vast numbers of half melniboneans who provide the sailors and marines whilst pure bloods provide the officer class?
3) If we stick with the notion that melniboneans would not arm large numbers of their slaves and that all their soldiers, marines and sailors (except the silent guard) are pureblooded then Immryr's population is in the millions. Hardly in decline compared to the populations of the YK. :?

Its quite a folly to try to rationalise what MM says in the stories. As he's said himself on several occasions, he's a storyteller and not a world builder, and what goes into a story is what fires the imagination and lifts the tale being told. So yes, if you start applying logic like this to MM's writing, you're always going to come away with discrepancies and contradictions so, in my view, its simply best not to do it.

 

[havercake lad]

Wise words from Loz.
There are some things just best not examined too closely.(Such as the actual population density of Mega City One)

 

[tarkhan bey]

I appreciate what you are saying guys but it can be great fun trying to rationalise the randomness at times.

 

[danskmacabre]

3) If we stick with the notion that melniboneans would not arm large numbers of their slaves and that all their soldiers, marines and sailors (except the silent guard) are pureblooded then Immryr's population is in the millions. Hardly in decline compared to the populations of the YK. :?

I don't see why Half-Melniboneans wouldn't be armed. Why would their loyalty be particularly in doubt? Even if their loyalty WERE in doubt, some Melnibonean happy drugs should sort out any "Attitude problems". The same goes for slaves.
Hell I bet some units of highly drugged Slaves used like a beserker unit or whatever would be pretty useful and devastating.
Also drugged (or lobotomised) slaves as rowers would do fine.
That doesn't even consider any magically sourced form of propulsion that could be used such as Elementals, Demons etc...

 

[tarkhan bey]

You see, I would be completely in agreement with you about all of the above Dansk. When Bright Shadows came out several years ago, I believe that Pete & Charles were of the opinion that Melnibone would not arm large numbers of it's slave population. At least,that was what was conveyed in a similar thread at that time regarding Immryr's population.
I reckon that those half breed offspring who exhibit Melnibonean characteristics(both physical and mental) are likely to be treated better and given positions of relative power and influence. I reckon that they would view themselves as 'a cut above' mere humans or their unfortunate kin who resemble their human parent more. I believe that it would be desirous for most of them to be accepted by their pure blooded peers as equals(though that would never happen)and thus, for the most part, their loyalty would be unquestionable(at least until their fragile egos had been dealt a crushing blow by their masters).

 

[tarkhan bey]

Forty battle barges still needs a load of drugged slave rowers though. I would imagine that if they were at full complement, there would be hardly a slave left in the Dreaming City. I was thinking that perhaps sorcerous propulsion could likely be used to propel them but how many Sylphs would be needed to propel one of them, let alone 40? :?

 

[danskmacabre]

I believe that Pete & Charles were of the opinion that Melnibone would not arm large numbers of it's slave population.

I think "As a rule" they wouldn't arm large numbers of their slave population. But I be they would happily use them as drug enhanced rowers on the battle barges. or as secondary troops in supply, maintenance etc...

I reckon that those half breed offspring who exhibit Melnibonean characteristics(both physical and mental) are likely to be treated better and given positions of relative power and influence. I reckon that they would view themselves as 'a cut above' mere humans or their unfortunate kin who resemble their human parent more. I believe that it would be desirous for most of them to be accepted by their pure blooded peers as equals(though that would never happen)and thus, for the most part, their loyalty would be unquestionable(at least until their fragile egos had been dealt a crushing blow by their masters).

Yes this all makes sense. There will always be exceptions of course. Disgruntled Half Melniboneans, even Slaves who manage to avoid being drugged for a time to try and escape or whatever.
I also have "Bright Shadows" and it pretty much says the slave population which greatly out numbers the Melnibonean population are controlled via drugs.

 

[danskmacabre]

Forty battle barges still needs a load of drugged slave rowers though. I would imagine that if they were at full complement, there would be hardly a slave left in the Dreaming City. I was thinking that perhaps sorcerous propulsion could likely be used to propel them but how many Sylphs would be needed to propel one of them, let alone 40? :?

Yes, like I said, sorcerous propulsion is entirely possible.
We must remember that these battle barges were made at the height of the Melnibonean civilization. The current generation of Melniboneans cannot build these barges anymore.
Whilst it might be a stretch to say ALL the propulsion is provided via Water and Air elementals (although why not? there could be millions or more Elementals available from the plane of air and water pacted to assist Melnibone).
The Demonic planes are pretty much a limitless supply of chaotic aid with the right ancient pacts, powerful spells that Melnibone would have access to at the height of their power and knowledge.

 

[Loz]

Whilst it might be a stretch to say ALL the propulsion is provided via Water and Air elementals (although why not? there could be millions or more Elementals available from the plane of air and water pacted to assist Melnibone).
The Demonic planes are pretty much a limitless supply of chaotic aid with the right ancient pacts, powerful spells that Melnibone would have access to at the height of their power and knowledge.

At the Bright Empire's height, I'd say this is true. During Elric's time... not so much. Melnibone has, aside from a handful of people, like Yyrkoon and Elric, forgotten its sorcery and abandoned its ancient pacts. Only Elric is able to command the kinds of demons and elementals needed to propel a battlebarge (and likely why their use has diminished so much) and even he struggles. So, at the time of the sacking of Imrryr, I'd suggest that conventional means are relied upon (lots of slaves, conditioned to the purpose, and sails of course).

There's also the notion - and one I'm continually intending to explore (and kind of have, in my current Elric campaign) - that the battlebarges are sentient...

 

[danskmacabre]

There's also the notion - and one I'm continually intending to explore (and kind of have, in my current Elric campaign) - that the battlebarges are sentient...

I would take a similar tack to this that there are many demons/Elementals bound into the ship itself via ancient pacts/sorcery put in place by Melnobonean Sorcs from the height of their civilization.
Sure the current Melniboneans can't recreate that magic themselves. but the Barges themselves aren't just hulks of ships, they are magical artifacts with still existing ancient magic bound into them (whether it's sorcery, elementals or demens of some combination of all of them).
The current Melniboneans can USE the ships and the magic that is embedded into them, but can't create any MORE ships like this, as they have simply lost that knowledge.

Mind you, Sentient battle-barges sound like a LOT of fun!

 

[tarkhan bey]

Sentient battle barges do sound like a fun idea.
However, what do you guys think that all those slaves do when they are not chained to the oars? Are they normally the house slaves etc, or do they come from a different pool? How many hundreds of thousands of slaves must there be to be able to crew these vast vessels and serve the masters?
I would not suggest that normal human slaves would be armed but that half bloods could almost be like Jannisaries or Mamluks and that loyal military service could lead to high(relatively speaking) political office for particularly lucky/gifted individuals.
What do you guys think of that idea?

 

[danskmacabre]

Sentient battle barges do sound like a fun idea.
However, what do you guys think that all those slaves do when they are not chained to the oars? Are they normally the house slaves etc, or do they come from a different pool? How many hundreds of thousands of slaves must there be to be able to crew these vast vessels and serve the masters?

I would go back to Loz's original comment that trying ot 100% rationalise MM's logic when creating the Young kingdoms was not precise or consistent. He painted his stories in very broad strokes.

But in an RPG, one way of looking at it is to say that yeah sure, in a Battle barge UNasssisted with sorcery, it would take 1000s of slaves or whatever to move it. but with Elementals, Demons, Sails AND rowers, it could be managed with considerably less.
That isn't necessarily how MM might have seen it, but then I'd imagine he never would have thought his work would be scrutinised so precisely.

 

[tarkhan bey]

As I said before Dansk, there's a lot of fun to be had in attempting to rationalise the seemingly random.
Did I mention that if I was one of MM's deities, I would probably be Arkyn the Meticulous.

 

[tarkhan bey]

@ Loz.

Is the game with sentient barges the game that Akrasia was writing the journal for? Still waiting for updates on his site.

 

[danskmacabre]

As I said before Dansk, there's a lot of fun to be had in attempting to rationalise the seemingly random.
Did I mention that if I was one of MM's deities, I would probably be Arkyn the Meticulous.

Heh yeah I know what you mean and I wasn't criticising you, I was just saying what I said meaning that there probably isn't any absolute concrete answer to these queries and you'll need to ultimately decide what is most comfortable for your game.

 

[Loz]

@ Loz.

Is the game with sentient barges the game that Akrasia was writing the journal for? Still waiting for updates on his site.

There is a sentient ship. And what happens with it is something of a momentous turn of events. But you'll just have to wait for Akrasia to issue those updates...

 

[DamonJynx]

Just my two-bobs worth:

Slaves: The naval slaves I think would be quartered on board the ships or in naval barracks and wouldn't form part of the household slave contingent. These would probably be bred specifically for the task at hand. In game terms they would probably have +3 or similar to STR & CON to represent this breeding.

Battle Barges: I like the idea of sentience in the ships. Perhaps during the construction and so on they added in a bit of "Essence of Pyaray"!